What have we accomplished?

Your faith is blind. Worse than that, your faith is delusional and harmful. You believe that fish evolve into mammals and yet can't explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. You aren't a scientist, you are an atheist zealot with a tangled view of evolution. So, what do you want to discuss, your mythical stories about Kiwi birds? Try taking an introductory course in probability theory so that you could learn something about stochastic process such as DNA evolution. High school students can understand that subject.

Well ok, that's a start of sorts.Can you tell me what my faith is? Try not to make assertions based on no knowledge if you can and if you can't, give it your best shot.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Sure, I've said it many times. In your faith, you believe that fish evolve into mammals while at the same time you can't explain the simplest evolutionary experiments (Kishony and Lenski experiments). Why does it take a billion replications for each adaptive evolutionary step in these experiments?

That's not a great start; that's neither my faith nor my belief, nor is it relevant to what I may or may not believe.Maybe it's better if you talk about what you actually know. How about what it is that you believe and see if you can do it without mentioning evolution or - I know this is hard for you - maths.

Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals? My faith tells us to count, that is math. Are you telling us that your faith says you shouldn't count? That's explains why I find it so hard to believe you when you say you are a scientist.

Of course not, that's not a matter of belief. Maths is not a faith kleinman. I'm not a scientist kleinman, I've told you this three times now.Can you see a pattern here? You're not listening to what people say. Instead you project what you want them to have said.But never mind all that, tell us about your faith beliefs - your religion.

So you think that's a matter of science? What science is that? That's right. So why is your faith devoid of math? You have a blind faith. What was it that you claimed? Didn't you say you had a couple of degrees in the sciences? They must have been very soft sciences without any mathematics. Did they do any kind of accounting in your studies? There is a pattern in evolution. If you studied some mathematics, you might understand that pattern. Evolution is very easy to understand once you recognize the patterns demonstrated in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. I have, you just are not listening. One of the things my religion tells us to do is count. Do you want me to show you the Bible verses? So, why does your religion tell you not to count?

No one believes this, so why do you keep repeating it. As it's been noted several times, fish and mammals are distant cousins not that mammals are decedents of fish. Stop spreading lies.

Having qualifications in scientific subjects does not make people scientists. I do not earn a living as a scientist. Ok, I must have missed that. I assume you are a Christian? What flavour? You appear to accept evolution as a fact at microbial level but I don't understand your position beyond that. It sounds like you're some form of creationist so you could start by telling us how old you think the earth is?

Don't be stupid, I totally get your point. You are stating that it takes many transitions to genetically transform fish into mammals, millions if not billions of genetic transformations. Why are you so mathematically incompetent that you can't explain the mathematics of a single one of those genetic transformations? And you stop spreading your mathematically irrational nonsense.

So you say you are qualified to be a scientist, you just aren't paid to be one? What makes you think that you are qualified to say that fish evolve into mammals? You aren't a scientist. Do you believe everything that is said to you. If you do, you are very naive. You must think I'm a Christian for the same reason I think you are an atheist. And I do accept that evolution occurs and based on my scientific training and experience, I write papers explaining the physics and mathematics of the phenomenon, something you should learn about if you think that fish evolve into mammals. What does your religion have against counting? Because that is what you must do to understand evolution. What makes you think that evolution works any different on the microbial level than with more complex replicators? Isn't adaptation by DNA evolution simply the accumulation of specific mutations that improve fitness for those replicators to the environmental selection conditions and it doesn't matter whether it is a lineage of bacteria or a lineage of fish?And I've never done any scientific study on the age of the earth. Sorry, I'm not trained or paid to be a speculator. I leave that kind of work to the fish-to-mammals aficionados.

No, I don't say that. I just say I have some science qualifications. I don't say that kleinman, you say that and I'm not interested in it. I don't know what that means - if anything. I think you're a Christian because you've mentioned that you're prepared to quote from the bible. Am I wrong? I'd rather work from fact than conjecture.And you don't have to wonder about whether I'm an atheist or not, I am. And my atheism has nothing to do with evolution. Something like that yes, but you don't appear to accept speciation - merely changes within species. Is that right? I didn't ask that, I just ask whether you think the earth is young or old. It's quite a simple question to answer. I think it's old, what do you think?

What scientific qualifications do you have to claim that fish evolving into mammals is a scientific fact? What physical laws, what mathematical principles substantiate your claim? You would be if you wanted to understand how drug-resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You just want to blame God for everything wrong in the world. What makes you think that someone quoting from the Bible is Christian? Lots of atheists (and those who rebel from God) like to quote from the Bible. Their favorite verse is the "judge not" verse. And you aren't interested in fact, otherwise, you would attempt to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Then why do you blame God for all the evil in the world? Perhaps in your twisted logic, evil has a selective advantage? Oh, that's right, you aren't interested in evolution. Sorry, I haven't really thought about that question. I've put my thought time into understanding how evolution works. And the scientific explanation of evolution is completely different than that presented by the fish-to-mammals aficionados. And the fish-to-mammals aficionados' explanation not only is wrong, but it is also harmful leading to drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. And that isn't conjecture, that is fact.

I'm an atheist...blaming god doesn't really work for me. Again, am I supposed to not notice you changing the subject and avoiding a direct question? I really don't care if you're a lapsed pagan; I'm just asking what your beliefs are - if any. You are terribly confused about this. How do you think an atheist can blame god for anything? That's an incredibly disingenuous answer. I don't believe it for a minute. You seriously have no opinion about whether the earth is billions of years old or 6,000? Really? I was under the impression that you thought yourself a scientist?So despite all your words, you've told me nothing about your religious beliefs, nor answered my question about speciation. Why so shy?

Sure it does. Remember when you said this Message 181? The Bible says nothing like this. Of course, if you think it does, you would point out the verse(s). I'm not the one changing the subject. I started my discussions on this forum debating the physics and mathematics of evolution. It is you who doesn't have either the scientific or mathematical training to discuss this subject and is trying to change the subject. I really don't blame you for doing this because if you actually tried to discuss and debate evolution, it would reveal how ignorant you are of the topic. Do all atheists believe that counting is of no consequence? Because in my faith, we are told to count. So, who do blame for the evil in the world? Did you ever consider yourself? Whether you think it is disingenuous or not, it's a fact. I have not done any kind of scientific study on the age of the earth. And I am a scientist, it just happens that my area of study is the physics and mathematics of evolution. So, do you think that fish evolving into mammals is an opinion of yours or is it a scientific fact? And if you think it is a scientific fact, what is the science behind your claim? Now don't change the subject! Don't be silly. I've told you lots about my religious beliefs. For example, my religion tell us to count. And I've applied those principles to evolution and published papers explaining DNA evolution and the mathematics governing that phenomenon. It is you who doesn't explain how fish evolve into mammals. In fact, you can't even explain correctly a single base evolutionary transition. Exactly what areas of science are you qualified in?