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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 821 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 301 of 472 (874997)
04-12-2020 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by GDR
04-12-2020 11:03 AM


There is no "universal morality that flows from God". In fact, the painstaking process of humanity figuring out what is moral and what is not (remember, not long ago almost everyone - including Bary Obama! - thought that marriage between two people of the same sex was immoral) has been only made more difficult by that human invention called religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by GDR, posted 04-12-2020 11:03 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by GDR, posted 04-12-2020 7:15 PM Sarah Bellum has seen this message but not replied
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 5:43 AM Sarah Bellum has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 302 of 472 (875000)
04-12-2020 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Sarah Bellum
04-12-2020 5:48 PM


I've gone around that with Tangle so if you like you can read what I have posted there.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Sarah Bellum, posted 04-12-2020 5:48 PM Sarah Bellum has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1669 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 472 (875022)
04-13-2020 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Sarah Bellum
04-12-2020 5:48 PM


...
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 304 of 472 (875539)
04-28-2020 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Dogmafood
04-03-2020 7:07 AM


Re: Are the morals of a lion the same as an antelope?
Dogmafood writes:
The best I can say is that you don't reverse 3 billion yrs of evolution just because you evolved an intellect. Our intelligence is a progression of that evolution and no matter what your stated basis for evaluating good and bad is it is still trying to push the same buttons that it always has.
This shows you still don't understand Maslow's pyramid.
I'm not attempting to say that intellect reverses any evolution.
But it does build on top of it.
Humans definitely do have that 3 billion years of evolution still inside them. That's the base of the pyramid - instinctual needs. Like food, water and shelter.
But... if we meet those needs, then our intellect is free to focus on other things.
If we meet enough/most/all instinctual needs (the top of Maslow's pyramid) then our intellect is extremely free from those 3 billion years of evolutionary drives - because those drives are already met!
All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone. And are no longer held back by being focused on instinctual needs.
What is the 3 billion years of evolution "button" that makes people choose to play darts? Or any other form of entertainment?
There is none.
These choices are freely made, intellectually, without regard to drives such as procreation or survival.
Because, if one is choosing to play darts, their "3 billion year old buttons" driving them to procreate and/or survive... are already pressed and already met!
No one chooses to play darts while running for their life from a mad gunman.
But, if you're safe, and out with pals, and there's no pressing need to have a baby... then you can freely choose to play darts or baseball or video games or collect stamps or any other form of entertainment.
Such choices are choices made (or, at least, "can be made") without regard to procreation and/or survival.
Not because procreation and survival are "reversed." But simply because those needs have already been met (Maslow's pyramid.)
Again, what is it about being able to reason that would fundamentally change that 3 billion yr trend?
3 billion years ago, reason did not exist on this planet.
An ant cannot choose a form of "entertainment" regardless of how well their needs for procreation/survival are met. Their pyramid simply does not go up that high.
Reason does not exist for an ant, and didn't exist for us (or any other living thing on earth) 3 billion years ago.
But now, reason exists for us.
Now, our pyramid does go that high.
Now, once our instinctual needs/drives are met - we are free to focus on wants/desires/choices/decisions that are based on reason/intellect and not based on instinctual needs/drives/buttons like procreation or survival.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 05-03-2020 12:01 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18586
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 305 of 472 (875688)
05-03-2020 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Stile
04-28-2020 8:39 AM


Re: Are the morals of a lion the same as an antelope?
Stile: All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone.
Serpant: Hey buddy. humans are all that there is. You will be as gods. Don't listen to myths.
Stile: Errr.thanks for the advice, but why am I talking to a snake? Sounds like I'm delusional!
Snake: Of course you are. Evidence always shows us the way. We are all unique and different and we all have a right to exist. Its how I convinced the Big Guy to even let me hang out here.
Stile: Nice try, Phat. What is the point of your analogy though?
Humor.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Stile, posted 04-28-2020 8:39 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Stile, posted 05-03-2020 3:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 306 of 472 (875704)
05-03-2020 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
05-03-2020 12:01 PM


Re: Are the morals of a lion the same as an antelope?
Phat writes:
Stile: All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone.
Serpant: Hey buddy. humans are all that there is. You will be as gods. Don't listen to myths.
Some use their intellect for evil and confusion.
Others for good and honesty.
Which do you choose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 05-03-2020 12:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 307 of 472 (912637)
09-20-2023 5:14 PM


The evolution of morality
I agree that morality has evolved over time, but I would see it as a growing understanding of a morality that always has been there.
We would all agree that slavery is wrong, and we would all agree that in the past in many cultures slavery was accepted as the norm and not seen as wrong.
We agree that it is wrong now but was it wrong then? Was slavery ok in it's time, but wrong now, or has slavery always been wrong?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-20-2023 6:20 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 309 by AZPaul3, posted 09-20-2023 7:44 PM GDR has replied
 Message 311 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2023 12:16 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 9.5


(2)
Message 308 of 472 (912638)
09-20-2023 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by GDR
09-20-2023 5:14 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
GDR in Message 307 writes:
We agree that it is wrong now but was it wrong then? Was slavery ok in it's time, but wrong now, or has slavery always been wrong?
I'm going to go with always wrong, I think if you asked any slave at any time and they would say IT'S FUCKING WRONG!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8640
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 7.8


Message 309 of 472 (912639)
09-20-2023 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by GDR
09-20-2023 5:14 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
We agree that it is wrong now but was it wrong then?
Certainly, we today see slavery as immoral. With help from retroactive morality, we can say that in accord with our enlightened intellectual development today, slavery has always been immoral.
Unfortunately, back in 1st century BCE Rome, this was not a prevalent point of view. Slavery was just the worst status assigned to people by the various classes, castes, in society. Just another reality that had always been there and no one questioned. Slavery, was once seen as useful for the elite and therefore to the benefit of society.
Different strokes for different folks. That is the very definition of relative morality. There is no hint of any objective moral guidance, biologically innate or otherwise, showing in the decisions of either era.
Was slavery ok in it's time, but wrong now, or has slavery always been wrong?
Yes.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by GDR, posted 09-20-2023 5:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 09-20-2023 11:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 310 of 472 (912640)
09-20-2023 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by AZPaul3
09-20-2023 7:44 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
AZPaul3 writes:
Certainly, we today see slavery as immoral. With help from retroactive morality, we can say that in accord with our enlightened intellectual development today, slavery has always been immoral.
I agree completely. So then, if they were wrong then how do we know we are right now? If it has always been wrong then there is a morality that exists that isn't simply the result of human evolution. It would have had to exist outside of human thought.
Sure, it has evolved over time in our thought processes, but slavery is wrong, has always been wrong and always will be wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by AZPaul3, posted 09-20-2023 7:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2023 3:31 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 313 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2023 7:09 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17893
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 311 of 472 (912641)
09-21-2023 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by GDR
09-20-2023 5:14 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
On the basis of the instincts which underlie what we call morality I would say that it was always wrong.
In principle it might be possible to come up with a version that wasn’t. Some people point to the situation of domestic slaves in the Roman Empire, ignoring the abuses even they had to suffer as well as the situation of the majority of slaves at that time - claiming that it was better than the situation in the US. Absent the racism it really wasn’t much better. Of course the people who are doing that are trying to whitewash the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by GDR, posted 09-20-2023 5:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9573
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.1


(5)
Message 312 of 472 (912643)
09-21-2023 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
09-20-2023 11:14 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
GDR writes:
I agree completely. So then, if they were wrong then how do we know we are right now?
We don't, we're quite literally making it up as we go along. Modern Western democracies believe that slavery is wrong because it harms a section of society and we've declared all men equal.
But we only go so far with that. We allow billionaires and poverty to exist in the same society even though we believe in that equality.
Other theistic societies are not even that evolved, they still suborn women, allow FGM, persecute and kill homosexuals etc.
Some societies persecute minority religious groups and don't allow free speech or even dress.
If it has always been wrong then there is a morality that exists that isn't simply the result of human evolution. It would have had to exist outside of human thought.
There is no morality that exists outside human thought, it's all a human invention, but it is all built around the concept that it's wrong to harm others. That's an evolved social trait and we stick to it only when it suits us.
There's no guarantee that Western values will beat all others, improve, and spread in an enlightened way around the globe, but those harmed will always also feel wronged and that's where morality comes from.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 09-20-2023 11:14 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-21-2023 10:44 AM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8640
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 7.8


(2)
Message 313 of 472 (912644)
09-21-2023 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
09-20-2023 11:14 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
So then, if they were wrong then how do we know we are right now?
What makes you think we are right now? Your view is rather arbitrary to be insisting you are right.
In the same way we look at ancient Rome, judging today's morality can best be made by others some 2000 years hence. The future may condemn our view of slavery as too limited in scope and needed to include extreme poverty. Who knows?
You cannot say your present morality is right in all things for all time. You cannot say your present morality is proper, right, humane or good. That judgement lies in future societies to decide the same way we judge the ancients today.
By future standards your present morality may be abhorrently barbaric.
If it has always been wrong then there is a morality that exists that isn't simply the result of human evolution.
That slavery is wrong now and always has been is our present morality speaking. The ancient romans didn't think slavery was immoral then or ever. The difference is the evolution of human thought and morality.
You are seeking an entry for your gods to intervene. There appears to be only the evolution of humanity.
... but slavery is wrong, has always been wrong and always will be wrong.
From today's perspective this is correct. From the perspective of Caesar, this is way wrong. And Caesar was no more disconnected from humanity than you are right now. His view was sanctioned by the society he grew up in. His view was right ... back then.
Our morality evolved. There never was, apparently, any divinely set principles of conduct in the ape lineage or before. We have to learn our morality the hard way by stumbling blindly through existence and making it up as we go.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 09-20-2023 11:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 09-21-2023 12:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 320 by GDR, posted 09-22-2023 5:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.2


(1)
Message 314 of 472 (912646)
09-21-2023 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tanypteryx
09-20-2023 6:20 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Yeah. A no-brainer. I would put my morals up against any Christian on this site. Am I perfect? No. But morally I am pretty damn solid.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-20-2023 6:20 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 9.5


(1)
Message 315 of 472 (912647)
09-21-2023 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
09-21-2023 3:31 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
Tangle in Message 312 writes:
but those harmed will always also feel wronged and that's where morality comes from.
THAT, right there, says it all!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2023 3:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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