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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Stile
Member
Posts: 4294
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 1066 of 1086 (909030)
03-27-2023 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Phat
03-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Phat writes:
Their quest is similar.
The one who wants to know God and is drawn by the Spirit will meet God in church (or in a park, or at home or wherever they happen to be)
The one who wants to achieve self actualization will have feelings of ambivalence and confusion while in a formal church setting. They will question why they are listening to the dogma. They will grow restless and leave the church, convinced that they were mere sheeple and/or blissfully ignorant. They will search elsewhere...not for "God" particularly but for self actualization and contentment. Does this make sense?
Sure - you just described subjective meaning again.
One thing (church) doesn't work for everybody.
Another one thing (let's say: self actualization) also doesn't work for everybody.
Because meaning is subjective.
If meaning was objective - then the objective meaning would work for everybody. Just like objective tape measures work for everybody.
In other words, everybody will find what they really want.
Yes - again, that's exactly what subjective meaning is.
For some, its objective. For others, its subjective.
You have yet to explain any "objective" meaning. All you've explained is some meaning from an external source (subjectively chosen by that external source) and called it objective. That's like mixing up the usage of their, there and they're... similar in a superficial way (at first glance,) but very different in actual functionality.
It seems like you don't understand what is intended by the definition of the word 'objective:'
quote:
OBJECTIVE: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Which means, if you're attempting to say that something from God is objective, that something has to not be influenced by God's feelings or opinions and be external to God as well.
If you want to claim that nothing is external to God... then nothing from God is objective. It's all subjective - according to God.
Something that's subjective, but from God doesn't turn into "objective" for us... it's simply external to us. But it's still subjective - according to God.
Everyone is looking for greater truth.
That's not true. Perhaps you and I are. Perhaps most at this webpage even are. But not everybody. Many people couldn't care less about what you and I described as "greater truth."
For the science minded, it is more exciting to ask more questions and reject pat (or easy) answers.
Almost true. Not more exciting. I actually find God more exciting than science. What's more exciting than magic and mystery?
I would say, though that science is more accurate and better at describing reality.
Religions tried it for thousands of years... and got basically no where.
Science tried it for a few hundred years... and created the Industrial Age and the Technological Age... which is pretty impressive.
For those of us who know ourselves and simply want stability and guidance in life, church can be welcoming and safe.
I would say church can be welcoming and safe for those who want to feel welcomed and safe as a priority.
However, if you know yourself and want stability and guidance in life and want to know the truth about reality as a priority - then church has shown itself to be very, very wrong and counter-productive. Science isn't "right" - but it is the best currently know about for getting as close as we can. And has shown itself to be way better than church at identifying the truth about reality. Where do you think your computer came from?
The science based mind, by contrast, is taught to set aside prior conclusions and move on.
Not "move on" but "allow reality to define reality as opposed to our personal opinions and biases."
For them, there is always more to be discovered.
If you ever think that's nothing left to be discovered - then you must think you have an answer for everything.
What sounds more like something who thinks they're a god?
-someone who thinks they have an answer for everything and there's no need to discover anything else?
-someone who thinks there's always more to be discovered, and they could be wrong?
Careful - your arrogance is showing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 03-27-2023 10:31 AM Stile has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1067 of 1086 (909031)
03-27-2023 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1060 by Theodoric
03-26-2023 5:17 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Theodorkic writes:
My children are not meaningless.
You're conflating emotions and meaning - they're not the same thing.
If this life is all there is and life is the result of mindless evolution, human offspring have no more meaning than the offspring of bacteria or the offspring of mosquitoes or the offspring of worms.
If this life is all there is and life is the result of mindless evolution, all organisms are just collections of molecules ... and molecules don't have any meaning. So living organisms have no more meaning than lifeless matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by Theodoric, posted 03-26-2023 5:17 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 9:26 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1068 of 1086 (909032)
03-27-2023 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by nwr
03-26-2023 5:35 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
nwr writes:
No, not at all. It was about my actions.
In your previous post you said "Christianity was about actions, about what we do and how we interact with other people" and that you gave it away bcoz of the actions of other Christians. That sounds like your faith was not based on Christ but on the actions of your fellow-Christians. That strikes me as a rather odd basis for Christian faith.
Christianity is about loving God and placing your faith in Christ ... the actions of some of your fellow-Christians should be irrelevant. No wonder you didn't last.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by nwr, posted 03-26-2023 5:35 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1069 of 1086 (909033)
03-27-2023 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Tanypteryx
03-26-2023 5:47 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
It's not sad for me. My life has meaning because it isn't finite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-26-2023 5:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-27-2023 11:40 AM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1070 of 1086 (909034)
03-27-2023 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1067 by Dredge
03-27-2023 8:58 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Bacteria, worms and mosquitos all have meaning. You are eqiovocating here.
Define meaning.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 8:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 9:35 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1071 of 1086 (909036)
03-27-2023 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1070 by Theodoric
03-27-2023 9:26 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Theodoric writes:
Bacteria, worms and mosquitos all have meaning.
What "meaning" is that?
‚ÄčIf this life is there is and all life is the result of mindless evolution, bacteria, worms and mosquitos ... and humans ... have no more meaning than lifeless dust.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 9:26 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 9:52 AM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1072 of 1086 (909037)
03-27-2023 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Dredge
03-27-2023 9:35 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
So you refuse to define meaning? Unless you tell us your definition of the word you have no argument.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 9:35 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 12:16 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17619
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1073 of 1086 (909039)
03-27-2023 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1066 by Stile
03-27-2023 8:49 AM


New Data
This is an interesting and thoughtful reply from you, Stile. I wanted to respond back with further thoughts of my own, but in order to do so, allow me a bit of poetic license on subjective meanings of words used by you in this exchange...perhaps if nothing else but to inspire further reflection.
Stile writes:
... if you're attempting to say that something from God is objective, that something has to not be influenced by God's feelings or opinions and be external to God as well.
If you want to claim that nothing is external to God... then nothing from God is objective. It's all subjective - according to God.
Something that's subjective, but from God doesn't turn into "objective" for us... it's simply external to us. But it's still subjective - according to God.
Historically, does a King have subjects or do they have objects? Are the people subjective to a King or are they objective?
Stile writes:
Many people couldn't care less about what you and I described as "greater truth."
Perhaps in granting humanity free will, God gave us the ability to be objective. We became free to determine our own objectives...even at the risk (to God) of rejecting Him. Historic dogma(apologetics) would say that God is not so much threatened by our rejection except for His concern of our destiny. Critics would ask why God cant simply make everyones destiny secure regardless of their freely given objective choice. I have no easy answer for that one yet.
Stile writes:
I actually find God more exciting than science. What's more exciting than magic and mystery?
And yet you state that you *know* that God does not exist, whereas I would state that I *know* that He does. Both of us find Him exciting, though I would qualify that by saying that occasionally I find Him to be a bit scary and difficult to know since I believe that His standards are nearly impossible for me to accept (unless He makes a way for me).
Granted He has magic in that all things are possible with Him...just as all things would theoretically be possible with magic. And both of us can definitely agree on the mystery of it all. For you, there is no rational connection. For me, there must be a rational connection...or even an irrational one if that is how it is meant to be. I wont place all of my eggs in the science basket due to the belief that science alone wont solve all human problems. In fact, science might end up being so "logical" as to eliminate humans from future equations regarding purpose and destiny. AI could conceivably replace us.
Stile writes:
Careful - your arrogance is showing.
Only because I have a personal stake in the results of this experiment. Im not ready to casually toss away data in order to find more (as an easy replacement).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1066 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:49 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1076 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 12:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1078 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4033
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1074 of 1086 (909042)
03-27-2023 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Dredge
03-27-2023 9:25 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
It's not sad for me. My life has meaning because it isn't finite.
Prove it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 9:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1080 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 12:20 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4294
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1075 of 1086 (909043)
03-27-2023 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Phat
03-27-2023 10:31 AM


Re: New Data
This sounds like you're attempting to use similar sounding words to make a point that doesn't exist.
Phat writes:
Historically, does a King have subjects or do they have objects? Are the people subjective to a King or are they objective?
A King has subjects.
The people are subjective to the King.
The people have their own subjective meanings regardless of whatever the King wants.
That is, even if the King demands his subjects all dig the moat - the subjects that would rather be building bridges or creating paintings will find the King to be meaningless.
Subjective meaning is still better than objective meaning.
Objective meaning still doesn't exist.
I don't understand your line of thinking here, other than attempt to muddy the waters with similar sounding words without actually making a coherent point.
We became free to determine our own objectives...
We didn't so much "become" this way as we've "always been" this way for as long as we've been around.
And, again - all you've done is describe subjective meaning. "Determining our own objectives" is the exact definition of subjective meaning.
Objective meaning would be, like "everyone wants to play baseball!" and, if everyone actually did want to play baseball, always and forever... then this meaning would be objective. Can you think of anything like that?
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I actually find God more exciting than science. What's more exciting than magic and mystery?
And yet you state that you *know* that God does not exist, whereas I would state that I *know* that He does.
Yeah. I know God doesn't exist just as I know magic doesn't exist.
We looked, and saw that it doesn't exist.
Everytime we investigate "magic" or "God-did-it" all we find are natural processes doing things naturally - no magic, no God, nothing to hint that magic might exist, nothing to suggest that God could exist.
I wont place all of my eggs in the science basket due to the belief that science alone wont solve all human problems.
No one's asking you to put all your eggs in any basket - I don't.
All I do is observe reality - and, realistically, science has a way better track record than religion does for identifying reality and making progress.
So - if I want to identify reality and make progress - why would I go anywhere else?
Just like when you drive anywhere - you don't shut your eyes and let Jesus take the wheel. You look as best you can to drive as safely as possible. See? Even YOU use science - when it matters.
I'm not ready to casually toss away data in order to find more
I'm not sure what you're attempting to say with this.
I'm not asking you to toss away data.
I'm asking to look at all the data you're ignoring.
I'm asking you to stop gambling on your feelings that you're about to "hit the big one!" (church/religion) and take a look at the actual odds you're ignoring that the house is always going to win (reality.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 03-27-2023 10:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1076 of 1086 (909045)
03-27-2023 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Phat
03-27-2023 10:31 AM


Re: New Data
Research equivocation. You are using different meanings of the word.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 03-27-2023 10:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1077 of 1086 (909046)
03-27-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by Theodoric
03-27-2023 9:52 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Fair point.
Does your life have meaning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 9:52 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 12:17 PM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1078 of 1086 (909047)
03-27-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Phat
03-27-2023 10:31 AM


Just an idea

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 03-27-2023 10:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1079 of 1086 (909048)
03-27-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Dredge
03-27-2023 12:16 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Still waiting for you to define the word.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 12:16 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 6:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2787
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1080 of 1086 (909049)
03-27-2023 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1074 by Tanypteryx
03-27-2023 11:40 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
In the fullness of time I will prove it.
Meanwhile, it can be proven philosophically that life has meaning only if it's eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-27-2023 11:40 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-27-2023 12:53 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1083 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2023 11:55 PM Dredge has replied

  
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