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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 856 of 894 (897796)
09-12-2022 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by Phat
09-12-2022 10:45 AM


Re: Is God A Relative?
I expanded my argument based on the beliefs of Peter Kreeft, a respected apologist.
Apologists are professional liars. There's no reason that they should be respected.
ringo has given a pretty good response on relativism, so no need for me to add my two cents.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 10:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:44 PM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 857 of 894 (897802)
09-12-2022 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by ringo
09-12-2022 12:33 PM


Power Tools
ringo writes:
Some goober named Peter Kreeft is not helping you.
He most certainly is! For one thing, he brings out your inner contrarian that got you away from the church. So far you have not insinuated that he is a liar, as you already claimed all apologists were. Both you and he respect the book (more than I do, apparantly ) so you will be challenged through that fact. Finally, he is not a fraud or a fake as Ravi Zacharias proved to be.
His academic degrees are legitimate.(if you respect that sort of thing)
The Case For Faith Kreeft interview writes:
Q: Then why did't God create a world without human freedom?
Kreeft: Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love--our love of God and our love of each other--must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose instead to hate.
Q: But look at Genesis, I said. God did create a world where people were free and yet there was no sin.
Kreeft: Thats precisely what he did. After creation,he declared that the world was 'good'. People were free to choose to love God or turn away from him. However, such a world is necessarily a place where sin is freely possible--and,indeed, that potentiality for sin was actualized not by God, but by people. The blame, ultimately, lies with us. He did his part perfectly; we're the ones who messed up.
ringo writes:
Our freedom was given to us by God.
So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
ringo writes:
The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.
Depends on what power the tools have.
ringo writes:
Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".
So kindly explain it to us. How could God be truly all-powerful, eliminate all evil potential and actual, and yet still give us free will? How free would we be?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM Phat has replied
 Message 862 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 863 by Stile, posted 09-13-2022 8:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 858 of 894 (897803)
09-12-2022 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by nwr
09-12-2022 1:40 PM


Re: Is God A Relative?
nwr writes:
Apologists are professional liars.
So are mythicists. Perhaps unknowingly.
And do you mean ALL of them? Why would they have to lie?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:40 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 859 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 3:24 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 860 by Theodoric, posted 09-12-2022 3:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 859 of 894 (897810)
09-12-2022 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 858 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:44 PM


Re: Is God A Relative?
Why would they have to lie?
Apologists are marketing Christianity. And marketing is a form of lying.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 860 of 894 (897814)
09-12-2022 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 858 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:44 PM


Re: Is God A Relative?
So are mythicists.
How so? Back this assertion with facts and data.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 861 of 894 (897825)
09-12-2022 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Power Tools
Phat writes:
For one thing, he brings out your inner contrarian that got you away from the church.
I'm not a contrarian. I only point out the most egregious errors.
Phat writes:
So far you have not insinuated that he is a liar, as you already claimed all apologists were.
I did suggest that he's an idiot - or didn't you pick up on that? It just so happens that what you quoted was more idiotic than lies.
Phat writes:
Both you and he respect the book....
I see no evidence that he respects the book.
Phat writes:
Finally, he is not a fraud or a fake as Ravi Zacharias proved to be.
That remains to be seen.
Phat writes:
His academic degrees are legitimate.
Irrelevant.
Phat writes:
So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
Lucifer is a figment of your imagination.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.
​Depends on what power the tools have.
Utter nonsense.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".
So kindly explain it to us.
It isn't hard. All-powerful means there is nothing He can not do.
Phat writes:
How could God be truly all-powerful, eliminate all evil potential and actual, and yet still give us free will?
If He was all-powerful, that's EXACTLY what He could do - ANYTHING.
Phat writes:
How free would we be?
With your version of God, we are nowhere near being free. The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
We've been through all of this before. 2 + 2 is still 4

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:38 PM ringo has replied
 Message 870 by Phat, posted 09-16-2022 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 862 of 894 (897831)
09-13-2022 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Power Tools
Hey Phat, does free will exist in heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4130
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 863 of 894 (897833)
09-13-2022 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Power Tools
Phat writes:
Q: Then why didn't God create a world without human freedom?
Kreeft: Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love--our love of God and our love of each other--must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose instead to hate.
This line of argument is very easily shown to be wrong.
Take anyone you know (possibly yourself?) who has ever felt "the highest value of love" in this universe - even if only for a fleeting moment.
Then ask them if they could have had that same moment if the possibility of child rape was removed from this universe.
There are only two outcomes:
1. Either they could very well have experienced the same moment, the same feeling of "the highest value of love."
OR
2. What they felt was dependent on some children being raped.. in which case, it's obviously not any value of love let alone "the highest value."
Which means: The possibility and actualization of child rape in our universe is not required for humans to have freedom, be human, hate and love and also be able to reach "the highest value of love."
I cannot decide to condemn someone else's soul to hell - can I?
Does that mean I don't have freedom? Not human? Do I have "less freedom" than some God who could do that?
Or... are you no longer talking about "freedom" here, and just hoping your audience gets confused as you actually discuss "abilities?"
Humans lack many abilities.
That doesn't mean they have "less freedom" than other creatures who have those abilities.
I think you're simply very confused on what "freedom" actually means.
The idea that "evil must exist for love to exist" is extremely immature, dualistic and silly. I mean - it reads like it's been pulled straight out of a not-very-good young-adult fiction book.
Love is more powerful than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 864 of 894 (897838)
09-13-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 862 by Tangle
09-13-2022 5:41 AM


Re: Power Tools
Hey Phat, does free will exist in heaven?
Well, according to accepted dogma, Lucifer actualized evil and fought Michael and the good guys so at some point there must have been free will.
Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like? Perhaps they get rid of their garbage via black holes...I've only apologetic dogma with which to provide an answer.
On the other hand, free will does not exist in Hell. I'm more sure of that. (hypothetically, of course)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by nwr, posted 09-13-2022 2:14 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 867 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 865 of 894 (897840)
09-13-2022 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by ringo
09-12-2022 10:01 PM


Re: Power Tools
ringo writes:
The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
Only because you want the right to define/create your own special eternal place.
Or maybe the cold hard logic of your critical thinking leads to the conclusion that this life is all there is.
In which case, all that you really have in the way of eternity is to pass along your kindness and wisdom to your offspring, or perhaps someone else. And that assumes that our hope springs eternal. How much of a bummer would it be if we could all peer into the future and see the vision of the end of humanity? Peggy Lee would become a prophet!

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by ringo, posted 09-13-2022 9:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 866 of 894 (897842)
09-13-2022 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Phat
09-13-2022 1:23 PM


Re: Power Tools
Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like?
You could just make stuff up. That's about the only way anybody could know anything about heaven.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 867 of 894 (897848)
09-13-2022 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Phat
09-13-2022 1:23 PM


Re: Power Tools
Phat writes:
Well, according to accepted dogma, Lucifer actualized evil and fought Michael and the good guys so at some point there must have been free will.
It's beyond time you and GDR stopped pretending you speak factually about stuff you're actually clueless about.

Re-read what you've written, it would look embarrassing in a Tolkien novel.
Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like? Perhaps they get rid of their garbage via black holes...I've only apologetic dogma with which to provide an answer.
Exactly. No-one is an expert on heaven so you just make it up.
But my question was about free will. Does it exist in heaven? Am I free covet my neighbouring angel's ox there?
You see, you grant freewill some sort of totemic importance here which appears to evaporate once you enter the pearly gates. I can't see that paradise includes crime because crime requires a victim and suffering so how come it's necessary to have free will here?
On the other hand, free will does not exist in Hell. I'm more sure of that. (hypothetically, of course)
Double standards perhaps?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by AZPaul3, posted 09-13-2022 7:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 868 of 894 (897849)
09-13-2022 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 867 by Tangle
09-13-2022 5:44 PM


More Dragonflies
We don’t just act for deterministic reasons like a dragonfly or a bacterium, we act for reasons we consciously represent to ourselves and can explain to others. In that extended act of consciousness we find we have the agency to be responsible for our reasoning and therefore for our actions. That is the extent of our free will.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 869 of 894 (897853)
09-13-2022 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 865 by Phat
09-13-2022 1:38 PM


Re: Power Tools
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
​Only because you want the right to define/create your own special eternal place.
Not at all. We're talking about a choice that is no choice. If I offer you a million dollars or a sharp stick in the eye, that's not a real choice. If your God offers heaven or hell, that's not a real choice.
Phat writes:
Or maybe the cold hard logic of your critical thinking leads to the conclusion that this life is all there is.
It's all any of us can know about. Heaven is a false promise and hell is a false threat.
Phat writes:
In which case, all that you really have in the way of eternity is to pass along your kindness and wisdom to your offspring, or perhaps someone else.
What's bad about that?
Phat writes:
How much of a bummer would it be if we could all peer into the future and see the vision of the end of humanity?
We can see it. Collectively, we may become extinct but individually we're going back to the stars.
Phat writes:
Peggy Lee would become a prophet!
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
ABE:
I thought you wanted to discuss absolute truth. Get to it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 870 of 894 (897952)
09-16-2022 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by ringo
09-12-2022 10:01 PM


Moving This Over Here
ringo writes:
I have asked you many, many, many times to show us ONE apologist who is not a liar. Get to it.
We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
Bio

Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober". It's ok, though....that's how you are.
Phat writes:
We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
All we've seen of him is a few lines that you quoted.
Phat writes:
Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people.
Irrelevant. So is Trump.
Phat writes:
You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober".
ringo writes:
I call him "some goober" because his ideas are no more important than some guy who pumps gas in Mayberry.
So you have no respect for education or degrees from accredited college institutions? Only because you yourself never gained any degrees and consider yourself and your logic more highly than you ought! I grant that you are humorous, however. Comic relief is your forte!
ringo writes:
If you want to discuss Peter Kreeft, get to it. I answered what you quoted from him. Respond to my answers.
Phat writes:
His academic degrees are legitimate.
ringo writes:
Irrelevant.
I forget that in Mayberry, even Gomer and Goober (some goober) are PhDs!
Phat writes:
So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
ringo writes:
Lucifer is a figment of your imagination.
Some would argue that life itself is a figment of our imagination! When I attempt to defend Christianity, I argue for a personified good, (Jesus) and a personified evil(Lucifer/Satan). This argument concerning figments of imagination is irrelevant.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.
​Depends on what power the tools have.
ringo writes:
Utter nonsense.
Humans are not children. Children dont need to become forced to believe in God. They should be given time to conclude for themselves.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".
So kindly explain it to us.
ringo writes:
It isn't hard. All-powerful means there is nothing He can not do.
Given this logic, God *could* have never allowed Satan to exist. Obviously He did and we should conclude that He has a reason.
ringo writes:
If He was all-powerful, that's EXACTLY what He could do - ANYTHING.
In context, ringo does not get to define "ANYTHING".
ringo writes:
With your version of God, we are nowhere near being free. The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
Let me guess. ringo wants a third option: Leave me alone (to do good on my own terms) don't fry my friends, and quit giving your Christianity a free pass! Sounds like a rebel in the spirit of a certain fallen angel.
And lets say that a choice between Heaven and Hell is no choice at all. What do you propose wwe do? Ignore the whole story and reject it hook,line, and sinker?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 872 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:12 PM Phat has replied
 Message 876 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:13 PM Phat has replied

  
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