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| Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Phat Member  Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You've read the book. Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.ringo writes: Dont Gish me, either. You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it. When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true. I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil. If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
I have - and that's how I know that God Himself said, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)ringo writes: The book says He said it. Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means? Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
And God also creates evil, as He said Himself ((Isaiah 45:7).ringo writes: That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.ringo writes: Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question. If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument. Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
Goats - like you - PRETEND to follow Jesus - and Jesus sends them to everlasting fire.ringo writes: If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests, He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil. I AM complete." In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway. It has nothing to do with whether or not Satan exists. God Himself SAID that He creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). There is no need for any other source of evil. ringo writes: Well, I can't do the same to you. You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist. And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books. It too is a lame argument. You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans. I threw away each hook, line, and sinker - of your theology, not of the Bible - individually, because they're individually nonsense. Phat writes:
You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!Maybe I serve Bob Dylan. Well he is Jewish, so one messiah is as good as another. 
Phat writes:
Also I might again mention the book of revelation.ringo writes: This started out with you saying, and I quote:
What has that got to do with what we're talking about?quote:It is you who are Gishing. You have become like jar--trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points. In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25. ringo writes: And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does. I have answered your points and I expect a response to my answers."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
ringo writes: The nonsense about "which tree" is clearly dishonest. There is no confusion in the story about which tree God was talking about. He said that Adam and Eve had become like Him, "to know good and evil."The bit about being, "condemned to death," is also dishonest. God said they would die on the same day, not be sentenced on the same day. Everyone dies a bit when they practice evil. I'm surprised that Trump is not yet dead.
ringo writes: And anyone brought before any judge should have been questioned already before being sentenced to death! All assumptions should be questioned. If God exists, humanity is being questioned to this day regarding their collective fate. We become the decisions we make, both individually, nationally, and globally.
PaulK writes: Let me note that the woman does not know the properties of either tree. If she were originally thinking of the Tree of Life she would still be thinking of the Tree of Life and eat from that. Perhaps the snake/serpent was a necessary competition to prevent God from having a monopoly. God may well have "created both good and evil, but it was actually for our own good. Note the distinction betweencreating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually BEING* good and evil. I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth. Metaphorically, Kreeft suggests that God is misunderstood. Many Christians assume that
How can all of those statements be true at the same time?Kreeft agrees that it is illogical. The Case For Faith writes: (Peter Kreeft talking "I remember a liberal preacher who once tried to dissuade me from taking up with the fundamentalists. He said: There's a logical problem here--you can be intelligent, or you can be honest, or you can be a fundamentalist, or any two of the three, but not all three!" Kreeft says that the same dilemma exists in the five points mentioned above.
Kreeft writes: As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil. So who actualizes it? (perhaps Republicans It seems you have to drop one of those beliefs. If God is all-powerful, He can do anything. If God is all-good, He wants only good. If God is all-wise, He knows what is good. Thus, if all those beliefs are true--and most Christians believe they are--then the consequence is that no evil can exist. But evil does exist. ) Are Kreeft and I being dishonest by speculating that God created the possibility of evil?Edited by Phat, : correcting punctuation errors "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
quote: Not according to the Bible. Many of the Patriarchs lived many many many many years. Billy Joel needs his piano tuned up! The Patriarchs were as human as you or I, but they are remembered due to the good they spread through leadership. ringo writes: Yes. (Note that only one yes is needed! All assumptions should be questioned. ) You're saying again that your god is not omnipotent - i.e. he doesn't have a monopoly on power. He chose to give up the monopoly, allowing the tempter(tester) to temper us and make us stronger. The Tiger Trap is merely a training dojo.
ringo writes: Kinda, in a way. The kid falls into the trap much as a Kung Fu student is tested (tempted) by cunning masters intent on making him stronger and wiser. Forget the terminology of "Tiger Trap." Think Training Dojo. Yeah, the neighbor kids fall into the tiger trap "for their own good." And no court would deny parents the right to send their children out into the world..ie the school of hard knocks. It is the process that the Father used for his prodigal son. Phat writes:
Note the distinction betweencreating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually BEING* good and evil. ringo writes: If a landlord digs a pit in the back yard, the pit is in effect the trap...lure....dojo of the tempter and is not the landlord's responsibility. It is merely a training dojo on the path of life. Some students make it out alive, while others experience death. No court can command the teacher to quit testing the students. Any judge worth their salt would allow a training dojo in the backyard. Call it a tiger trap if you wish. And if it did trap a tiger, only a tiger could sue, and Tigers cant read. Would you help satan win his case or are you going to allow the metaphor to change from Tiger Trap to training Dojo? We have noted many, many, many, many, many, many, many times that they are exactly the same. Phat writes:
I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. You support this line of thought by claiming that "I create good and evil" is the exact same thing as I AM Good and evil. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.ringo writes: He also told them they would be like gods and they ended up homeless and naked. The landlord kicked them out. Perhaps they were expected to grow up. Now I have challenged the accusation that it was a trap. It was training. What was partial about it? He said they wouldn't die the same day and they didn't.You love to invoke appeals to popularity-- quote:I dont care how many times you repeat the word "yes" or "many". Many are called yet few are chosen. [/quote] Phat writes:
As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil.ringo writes: I would object and say that it was *you* who mentioned tiger traps. Perhaps it is you who is the attractive nuisance. Comb your har and straighten up. Jesus is coming back soon. Look busy! Any court in the land is going to call your tiger trap an attractive nuisance and hold YOU responsible for creating it.
Stop blaming the victims. Stop defending them in court. Allow the victims to speak.
ringo writes: You are simply trying to frame the argument, invoking an appeal to popularity and thinking you know more than God err I mean Christians. See the dozens of times it has been explained to you! The one who creates the problem is responsible!"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Not at all. I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment that really accentuates the fact that God is never unaware of our behaviors.
 There is no place to hide.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Theo aka Ego writes: Christofascists?? I am always impressed when christofascists ignore their claims of their skydaddy's omniscience and omnipotence when it suits them.Can you define your new word for us? Whats good for the goose(step) is good for the gander!  The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I think you are capable of using google. Here is a hint. It has a wiki entry. Actually, the Urban Dictionary entry hit the proverbial nail on the head! 
Urban Dictionary writes: Evangelical, semi-theocratical movement or temperment of Americans who stand against abortion, sexual education, homosexuality, science, anti-Zionism, and the separation of church and state. Origins: In the mid-2000s, the Bush administration refined its broadly titled "War on Terror" campaign to the "Fight Against Islamofascism." This transfered the stigma of the 9/11 attacks and that carried by our enemies in the Middle East from tactics (e.g., terrorism) to policies (e.g., a Muslim caliphate). Since politically-active Evangelicals seek to at least partially theocratize America, the term "Christofascism" appeared to take advantage of the Republican rhetorical realignment. One uses the term perjoratively when calling someone else a Christofascist. It inherently accuses its object of disloyalty to democracy; it attempts to evoke the feelings of hostility towards Middle Eastern terrorists and transfer them to Evangelicals. When discussed generally, Christofascism is a bold label for political Evangelism but does not sling as much mud as the former usage.Andrew: I believe that America was chosen to be God's nation, and that the Framers intended for there to be no separation of church and state. James: Like every other Christofascist, Andrew, you want to replace our Constitution with the Bible. Moderator: Jennifer, I know that you are working on behalf of the Socialist candidate, but I'm wondering what you expect will be the ground effort that Evangelical Republicans make this year on behalf of the Republican candidate's campaign?Jennifer: The important thing to remember about Christofascism is that they only participate in party politics when they believe it will advance their specific agenda. If the Republican candidate only campaigns on the economy and national security, the Christofascists will not go the extra mile in terms of campaign support that they tend to go when the nominee talks about abortion, public prayer, and gay marriage. I can't be that bad!The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Dredge writes:
I might mention that our very own site owner and Admin, Percy, came from a Universalist background. Greatest writes:
Okay, but what part does Christianity play in "Gnostic Christianity"? As compared to Christianity, we are the good Christians. We are universalists and not misogynous or homophobic like many Christians. We are also brighter as we know that all Gods are man made. Free thinking and morals are our forte. Why doesn't the Catholic Church regard you as Christian? Lets again ask Diffen.
Atheism vs Gnosticism quote:Hence why I scolded GIA for cussing at people...seeing as how that is a manifestation of one of those ancient spirits from ancient religions. Diffen writes:
Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning". Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed but are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth.
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18745 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
jar writes:
Yes, I know that is your contention--that most of the sheep will be atheists,Wicca's,Universalists,and maybe even Gnostic's! You always abhorred the idea that we were given something that we never earned, as if your meritocracy boarding school mentality of a life consisting of what we do rather than saved by grace was more rational. God, if She exists may have other ideas. Damn few Christians will ever find it.(the afterlife)
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