Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9178 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,079 Year: 5,336/9,624 Month: 361/323 Week: 1/204 Day: 1/21 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 882 of 1086 (898009)
09-17-2022 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 880 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 1:31 PM


Re: Moving This Over Here
And maybe the Grand Unicorn poops in the universe next door.
Not in my belief. God is not only the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is the Grand designer of each and every multiverse that you can count. Now to be fair, hell, if it exists, may be the place where a grand unicorn exists...just waiting to jab you with its horn.
{ever had a bad acid trip?)

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 1:31 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 883 of 1086 (898012)
09-17-2022 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by ringo
09-17-2022 12:13 PM


Re: Moving This Over Here
ringo writes:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
You've read the book.
  • Why do you call me good? There is none good but God.
  • I and my Father are one.
  • May they be one as we are one.
  • depart you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
  • My sheep hear my voice.
    Thus...sheep follow the shepherd, who represents personified good.
    goats follow nobody yet end up with the devil and his angels.
    I suppose that the devil *does not exist* so I have no case for personified evil...yet.
    ringo writes:
    Message 3131
    Since you don't believe satan exists, you label God as the monster. Perhaps that is one reason you threw the
    whole story away hook, line, and sinker.
    Also do the math.
    Jesus: I and my father are one. (1)
    demons: We are legion. (more than 1). Many. Unicorns, buddhas, tacos with Jesus on them, shrouds of Turin, shiny new corvettes, SI swimsuit editions...etc etc.
    You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!
    Also I might again mention the book of revelation. Message 119
    Phat writes:
    Rev 1:1 NIV writes:
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
    God is showing something which must soon take place. Foreknowledge?
    Rev 1:4 writes:
    Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come
    Past, Present, and Future.

    GOD was, Is, and Is to come. God is past, present, and future.

    So we have our Christ...
    Rev 1:17-18 writes:
    "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!

    And we have our AntiChrist...
    Rev 17:8 writes:
    The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    Once Was implies that this creature had a beginning...was created...not eternal. This creature is not in the present moment...and yet is in the future.

    God foreknows nothing and yet knows everything that happens in His eternal presence. Lucifer chose to become satan...just as we choose our destiny on a moment-by-moment basis...and our present choice becomes our future reality. We become the decisions that we make. God is not evil ...but he beast is evil. God is not evil for allowing the beast to exist. The Beast once chose to become a beast rather than an angel. Similarly, we choose our destiny.

    Edited by Phat, : added comment

    Edited by Phat, .


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 876 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:13 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 885 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:59 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 886 of 1086 (898093)
    09-18-2022 4:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 885 by ringo
    09-18-2022 2:59 PM


    Gishing It Out With Ringo
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
    You've read the book.
    ringo writes:
    I have - and that's how I know that God Himself said, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
    Dont Gish me, either. You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it. When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true. I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil. If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
    ringo writes:
    And God also creates evil, as He said Himself ((Isaiah 45:7).
    The book says He said it. Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means? Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
    ringo writes:
    But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.
    That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
    ringo writes:
    Goats - like you - PRETEND to follow Jesus - and Jesus sends them to everlasting fire.
    Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question. If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument. Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
    ringo writes:
    It has nothing to do with whether or not Satan exists. God Himself SAID that He creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). There is no need for any other source of evil.
    If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests, He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil. I AM complete." In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway.
    ringo writes:
    I threw away each hook, line, and sinker - of your theology, not of the Bible - individually, because they're individually nonsense.
    Well, I can't do the same to you. You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist. And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books. It too is a lame argument. You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans.
    Phat writes:
    You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!
    Maybe I serve Bob Dylan.
    Well he is Jewish, so one messiah is as good as another.
    Phat writes:
    Also I might again mention the book of revelation.
    ringo writes:
    What has that got to do with what we're talking about?
    This started out with you saying, and I quote:
    quote:
    Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
    It is you who are Gishing. You have become like jar--trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points. In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25.
    ringo writes:
    I have answered your points and I expect a response to my answers.
    And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 885 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:59 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 887 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 896 by Phat, posted 01-13-2023 8:51 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 888 of 1086 (898838)
    10-01-2022 8:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
    10-20-2019 3:48 PM


    Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    ringo writes:
    The nonsense about "which tree" is clearly dishonest. There is no confusion in the story about which tree God was talking about. He said that Adam and Eve had become like Him, "to know good and evil."
    The bit about being, "condemned to death," is also dishonest. God said they would die on the same day, not be sentenced on the same day.
    Everyone dies a bit when they practice evil. I'm surprised that Trump is not yet dead.
    ringo writes:
    All assumptions should be questioned.
    And anyone brought before any judge should have been questioned already before being sentenced to death!
    If God exists, humanity is being questioned to this day regarding their collective fate. We become the decisions we make, both individually, nationally, and globally.
    PaulK writes:
    Let me note that the woman does not know the properties of either tree. If she were originally thinking of the Tree of Life she would still be thinking of the Tree of Life and eat from that.
    Perhaps the snake/serpent was a necessary competition to prevent God from having a monopoly. God may well have "created both good and evil, but it was actually for our own good. Note the distinction between
    creating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually
    BEING* good and evil.
    I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.
    Metaphorically, Kreeft suggests that God is misunderstood. Many Christians assume that
  • God exists
  • God is all-good.
  • God is all-powerful.
  • God is all-wise.
  • Evil exists.
    How can all of those statements be true at the same time?
    Kreeft agrees that it is illogical.
    The Case For Faith writes:
    (Peter Kreeft talking "I remember a liberal preacher who once tried to dissuade me from taking up with the fundamentalists. He said: There's a logical problem here--you can be intelligent, or you can be honest, or you can be a fundamentalist, or any two of the three, but not all three!"
    Kreeft says that the same dilemma exists in the five points mentioned above.
    Kreeft writes:
    It seems you have to drop one of those beliefs. If God is all-powerful, He can do anything. If God is all-good, He wants only good. If God is all-wise, He knows what is good. Thus, if all those beliefs are true--and most Christians believe they are--then the consequence is that no evil can exist. But evil does exist.
    As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil. So who actualizes it? (perhaps Republicans )
    Are Kreeft and I being dishonest by speculating that God created the possibility of evil?

    Edited by Phat, : correcting punctuation errors


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-20-2019 3:48 PM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 889 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 890 of 1086 (898892)
    10-02-2022 1:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 889 by ringo
    10-01-2022 12:36 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    quote:
    Only the good die young -- Billy Joel
    Not according to the Bible. Many of the Patriarchs lived many many many many years. Billy Joel needs his piano tuned up! The Patriarchs were as human as you or I, but they are remembered due to the good they spread through leadership.
    ringo writes:
    All assumptions should be questioned.
    Yes. (Note that only one yes is needed! )
    You're saying again that your god is not omnipotent - i.e. he doesn't have a monopoly on power.
    He chose to give up the monopoly, allowing the tempter(tester) to temper us and make us stronger. The Tiger Trap is merely a training dojo.
    ringo writes:
    Yeah, the neighbor kids fall into the tiger trap "for their own good."
    Kinda, in a way. The kid falls into the trap much as a Kung Fu student is tested (tempted) by cunning masters intent on making him stronger and wiser. Forget the terminology of "Tiger Trap." Think Training Dojo.
    And no court would deny parents the right to send their children out into the world..ie the school of hard knocks. It is the process that the Father used for his prodigal son.
    Phat writes:
    Note the distinction between
    creating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually
    BEING* good and evil.
    ringo writes:
    We have noted many, many, many, many, many, many, many times that they are exactly the same.
    If a landlord digs a pit in the back yard, the pit is in effect the trap...lure....dojo of the tempter and is not the landlord's responsibility. It is merely a training dojo on the path of life. Some students make it out alive, while others experience death. No court can command the teacher to quit testing the students. Any judge worth their salt would allow a training dojo in the backyard. Call it a tiger trap if you wish. And if it did trap a tiger, only a tiger could sue, and Tigers cant read. Would you help satan win his case or are you going to allow the metaphor to change from Tiger Trap to training Dojo?
    Phat writes:
    I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. You support this line of thought by claiming that "I create good and evil" is the exact same thing as I AM Good and evil. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.
    ringo writes:
    What was partial about it? He said they wouldn't die the same day and they didn't.
    He also told them they would be like gods and they ended up homeless and naked. The landlord kicked them out. Perhaps they were expected to grow up. Now I have challenged the accusation that it was a trap. It was training.
    ​You love to invoke appeals to popularity--
    quote:
    YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are being dishonest! See the dozens of times it has been explained to you!
    I dont care how many times you repeat the word "yes" or "many". Many are called yet few are chosen. [/quote]
    Phat writes:
    As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil.
    ringo writes:
    Any court in the land is going to call your tiger trap an attractive nuisance and hold YOU responsible for creating it.
    I would object and say that it was *you* who mentioned tiger traps. Perhaps it is you who is the attractive nuisance. Comb your har and straighten up. Jesus is coming back soon. Look busy!
    Stop blaming the victims.
    Stop defending them in court. Allow the victims to speak.
    ringo writes:
    See the dozens of times it has been explained to you! The one who creates the problem is responsible!
    You are simply trying to frame the argument, invoking an appeal to popularity and thinking you know more than God err I mean Christians.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 889 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 12:36 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 891 by ringo, posted 10-02-2022 3:01 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 3:33 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 893 of 1086 (898897)
    10-02-2022 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 892 by Theodoric
    10-02-2022 3:33 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    Will you stop? You and I never even talk or have a discussion about anything here at EvC. All I get from you is armchair criticism. Whether you care about the names on the screen apart from whether or not they agree with your politics I do not know. But to label someone as a vile human being without knowing anything about them is unwarranted. I suppose i could tell you to go crawl back under your rock, but I have more respect for you than that. I mean really, Theo.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 3:33 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 894 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 5:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 895 by ringo, posted 10-03-2022 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 896 of 1086 (904955)
    01-13-2023 8:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 886 by Phat
    09-18-2022 4:47 PM


    Re: Gishing It Out With Ringo
    ringo writes:
    A human can't fall into a tiger trap without a human being present. It's the tiger trap that doesn't need to be present. The evil One who dug the tiger trap is responsible.
    And
    He who creates evil is evil.

    So one day, a woman you obviously knew well has a son. The boy grows up. One day he robs a bank and shoots a guard. Are you responsible for his evil?
    More to your point, if God created a fully free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and become Satan, why in Heaven is God responsible? If I were capable of creating a free-willed Being who made a wrong choice, why am I responsible?

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 886 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 4:47 PM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 897 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2023 9:10 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 898 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2023 9:23 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 899 by Taq, posted 01-13-2023 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 900 by ringo, posted 01-13-2023 10:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 902 by NosyNed, posted 01-13-2023 3:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 903 of 1086 (904982)
    01-13-2023 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 902 by NosyNed
    01-13-2023 3:08 PM


    Re: responsibility
    Not at all. I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment that really accentuates the fact that God is never unaware of our behaviors. There is no place to hide.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 902 by NosyNed, posted 01-13-2023 3:08 PM NosyNed has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 904 of 1086 (904984)
    01-13-2023 3:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 901 by Theodoric
    01-13-2023 11:43 AM


    Re: Gishing It Out With Ringo
    Theo aka Ego writes:
    I am always impressed when christofascists ignore their claims of their skydaddy's omniscience and omnipotence when it suits them.
    Christofascists??
    Can you define your new word for us? Whats good for the goose(step) is good for the gander!

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 901 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2023 11:43 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 905 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2023 3:19 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 906 of 1086 (904986)
    01-13-2023 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 905 by Theodoric
    01-13-2023 3:19 PM


    Trading Words With Theo
    I think you are capable of using google. Here is a hint. It has a wiki entry.
    Actually, the Urban Dictionary entry hit the proverbial nail on the head!
    Urban Dictionary writes:
    Evangelical, semi-theocratical movement or temperment of Americans who stand against abortion, sexual education, homosexuality, science, anti-Zionism, and the separation of church and state.
    Origins: In the mid-2000s, the Bush administration refined its broadly titled "War on Terror" campaign to the "Fight Against Islamofascism." This transfered the stigma of the 9/11 attacks and that carried by our enemies in the Middle East from tactics (e.g., terrorism) to policies (e.g., a Muslim caliphate). Since politically-active Evangelicals seek to at least partially theocratize America, the term "Christofascism" appeared to take advantage of the Republican rhetorical realignment.
    One uses the term perjoratively when calling someone else a Christofascist. It inherently accuses its object of disloyalty to democracy; it attempts to evoke the feelings of hostility towards Middle Eastern terrorists and transfer them to Evangelicals.
    When discussed generally, Christofascism is a bold label for political Evangelism but does not sling as much mud as the former usage.
    Andrew: I believe that America was chosen to be God's nation, and that the Framers intended for there to be no separation of church and state.
    James: Like every other Christofascist, Andrew, you want to replace our Constitution with the Bible.
    Moderator: Jennifer, I know that you are working on behalf of the Socialist candidate, but I'm wondering what you expect will be the ground effort that Evangelical Republicans make this year on behalf of the Republican candidate's campaign?
    Jennifer: The important thing to remember about Christofascism is that they only participate in party politics when they believe it will advance their specific agenda. If the Republican candidate only campaigns on the economy and national security, the Christofascists will not go the extra mile in terms of campaign support that they tend to go when the nominee talks about abortion, public prayer, and gay marriage.
    I can't be that bad!

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 905 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2023 3:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 923 of 1086 (907220)
    02-20-2023 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 921 by Greatest I am
    02-20-2023 12:35 PM


    The Greatest© vs The Rest Of Us
    GIA,replying to AZPaul3 writes:
    Spoken like an ass hole who does not know that we do not believe in the supernatural.
    And yet you curse other forum members whether they are traditional believers or atheists. You may well not believe in the supernatural but you manifest it all the time.
    Ask questions or remain stupid and ill informed.
    To Whom should he ask questions? You are far far removed from having the intelligence to answer questions. I encourage you to humble yourself and keep searching, however.
    Why in hell do you think we were acquisitioned nearly to death by the religions you refer to, stupid?
    I suppose that you consider yourself a fount of knowledge regarding Gnosticism but you are but a legend in your own mind. (Keep working at it)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 921 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2023 12:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 924 by Greatest I am, posted 02-21-2023 10:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 929 of 1086 (907324)
    02-21-2023 4:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 926 by Dredge
    02-21-2023 3:53 PM


    Answering For The Peanut Gallery
    I can almost answer for some of the EvC members having known what they have said in the past. Greatest IAM is not yet a charter peanut gallery member, but I can guess what he will say in response/reply to you. So if you will allow me...
    Dredge writes:
    You're "Christian" but you don't believe in the supernatural? I'm confused. Does that mean you don't believe in God?
    Message 1
    GIA:
    I am not much into the myths we(old school Gnostics) wrote to put against the Christian myth, when we all knew that it was foolish to believe in the supernatural.
    I do like the universalist thinking and naturalistic aspect of religion that Christianity abandoned for supernatural thinking.
    Jesus asks in scriptures; have ye forgotten that ye are gods?
    If you have forgotten your birth rite of godliness, but can think in material dualism terms, body soul term, then Gnostic Christianity has answers that I like and you might also enjoy.(...)Gnostic Christians, like all the esoteric branches of Christianity and Judaism, have never believed in the supernatural.
    Most Jews, other than the right wing, like Gnostic Christians, like to point out how Jesus asked in scriptures, have ye forgotten that ye are gods?
    Gnostic Christians have not.
    Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.
    It has always puzzled me why GIA doesnt just become a critically thinking secular humanist/atheist like the rest of the peanut gallery, but he does mention the concept of Apotheosis.
    Wiki writes:
    Apotheosis, also called divinization or deification, is the glorification of a subject to divine levels and, commonly, the treatment of a human being, any other living thing, or an abstract idea in the likeness of a deity. The term has meanings in theology, where it refers to a belief, and in art, where it refers to a genre
    In a sense, deification is a synonym. I don't think that GIA actually believes he is a god, since he is flesh and blood like the rest of us, but the demons play tricks with his mind. (Of course he would scoff, claiming that anyone who believes in the supernatural...be it demons or the Holy Spirit...is delusional.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 926 by Dredge, posted 02-21-2023 3:53 PM Dredge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 930 by Dredge, posted 02-21-2023 4:53 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 931 of 1086 (907327)
    02-21-2023 4:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 925 by Dredge
    02-21-2023 3:49 PM


    Dont Gnock It Till You Understand It
    Dredge writes:
    Greatest writes:
    As compared to Christianity, we are the good Christians.

    We are universalists and not misogynous or homophobic like many Christians.

    We are also brighter as we know that all Gods are man made.

    Free thinking and morals are our forte.
    Okay, but what part does Christianity play in "Gnostic Christianity"?
    Why doesn't the Catholic Church regard you as Christian?
    I might mention that our very own site owner and Admin, Percy, came from a Universalist background.
    Lets again ask Diffen.
    Atheism vs Gnosticism
    quote:
    Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
    Gnosticism describes a collection of ancient religions whose adherents shunned the material world - which they viewed as created by the demiurge - and embraced the spiritual world.

    Hence why I scolded GIA for cussing at people...seeing as how that is a manifestation of one of those ancient spirits from ancient religions.
    Diffen writes:
    Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning". Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed but are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 925 by Dredge, posted 02-21-2023 3:49 PM Dredge has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 951 by Greatest I am, posted 02-23-2023 11:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 932 of 1086 (907332)
    02-21-2023 5:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 930 by Dredge
    02-21-2023 4:53 PM


    Re: Answering For The Peanut Gallery
    Dredge writes:
    Does he believe in an after-life of any kind?
    If he does, the demons are tricking him with an antichrist spirit that seeks to make oneself as the only god that makes sense. Which leads to the question of whether the antichrist himself believes in an afterlife.
    Overall I think that we(Christians)are more narrow minded as a group than are gnostics, universalists, and atheists.
    Which may not be a bad thing.
    After all, Jesus told us that narrow is the path...and that few find it. Critics would say that the church manipulated followers by speaking of a narrow path. Yet the secular path has a lot of thorns and thistles.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 930 by Dredge, posted 02-21-2023 4:53 PM Dredge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 933 by jar, posted 02-21-2023 6:11 PM Phat has replied
     Message 934 by Dredge, posted 02-21-2023 6:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18419
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 938 of 1086 (907362)
    02-21-2023 8:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 933 by jar
    02-21-2023 6:11 PM


    Re: Answering For The Peanut Gallery
    jar writes:
    Damn few Christians will ever find it.(the afterlife)
    Yes, I know that is your contention--that most of the sheep will be atheists,Wicca's,Universalists,and maybe even Gnostic's! You always abhorred the idea that we were given something that we never earned, as if your meritocracy boarding school mentality of a life consisting of what we do rather than saved by grace was more rational. God, if She exists may have other ideas.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 933 by jar, posted 02-21-2023 6:11 PM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 941 by Taq, posted 02-22-2023 10:47 AM Phat has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024