Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 60 (9085 total)
159 online now:
PaulK, Phat (2 members, 157 visitors)
Newest Member: evolujtion_noob
Post Volume: Total: 897,545 Year: 8,657/6,534 Month: 138/1,588 Week: 89/406 Day: 3/29 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus Among Secular Gods
Phat
Member
Posts: 16371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 94 (863485)
09-26-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-26-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Canon Fodder
Why dont the apologists admit the evidence for the redactors?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:10 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 94 (863488)
09-26-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
09-26-2019 12:02 PM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:
The point is that many believe that the supernatural is a part of reality, despite no (Objective) evidence. Do you find the idea of a supernatural God laughable? Is your belief formed soley through evidence? What specifically about the God that is marketed by today's apologists do you find objectionable?
The basic and most glaring and utter dishonesty is confusing beliefs with facts. When they claim something is a miracle that is simply dishonest. When they claim the supernatural exists that is simply dishonest.
If they simply claim they believe those things and understand that there is absolutely no evidence to support those claims then that is not dishonest. If though they make the claims without also making it clear that there is no evidence to support their assertions and it is only their beliefs, they are committing the sin of omission.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 11:18 AM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 33 of 94 (863521)
09-27-2019 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by GDR
09-26-2019 2:50 AM


Re: Christian
Hi GDR
GDR writes:
Matthew or the Kingdom of God in the other Gospels
There is going to be an earthly kingdom on earth with Jesus ruling the earth from Jerusalem. The judgment of the nations jar likes to refer too of sheep and goat nations will be the choosing of the sheep nations to inhabit the earth during a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth with His Bride ruling with Him. The Apostles will set on thrones with Him ruling over the Jewish people. During this time the devil will have been chained in the bottomless pit after he is cast out of heaven and fights a war with Michael the archangel and is defeated.
So get your theology straight.
GDR writes:
The point about being born again is that it is about having a heart that learns to love sacrificially,
The only function the heart has is to pump blood through a system that provides energy, oxygen, and removes the waste from the cells.
The spirit is what has to be born again. Go back and read what John said in the text.
Your mind is the only thing that makes decisions. That is the battleground where the warfare takes place. The body still wants to do all the old things. The spirit wants you to do new things. Thus the body and spirit is at war. Your mind is like a computer you put garbage in you will get garbage out. You have to get rules to live by from somewhere. God gives us those rules. But most people want to make up their own rules. Therein lies the problem.
GDR writes:
This again is more about Greek mythology than anything else.
So you are saying Jesus was teaching Greek mythology when He told Nicodemus he had to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 2:50 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 7:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 34 of 94 (863526)
09-27-2019 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
09-26-2019 11:36 AM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
Assumptions are based on evidence.
What evidence is the assumption that the universe existed one trillionth of a second before the Big Bang Theory begins its story of how the universe began expanding.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 09-26-2019 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 3:16 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 36 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2019 9:30 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 09-27-2019 12:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7571
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 94 (863527)
09-27-2019 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
09-27-2019 2:51 AM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
And that is off topic. But then again you know that. You cannot resist trolling, can you?
Edited by Theodoric, : Missed an f

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 2:51 AM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7049
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 36 of 94 (863540)
09-27-2019 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
09-27-2019 2:51 AM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
What evidence is the assumption that the universe existed one trillionth of a second before the Big Bang Theory begins its story of how the universe began expanding.
General Relativity, specifically The Friedmann equations.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 2:51 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 10:52 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 37 of 94 (863556)
09-27-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by AZPaul3
09-27-2019 9:30 AM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
Hi AZ
AZPaul3 writes:
General Relativity, specifically The Friedmann equations.
I will address this in a few days in another thread as I want to check my information before I go to print with my book.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2019 9:30 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 94 (863562)
09-27-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
09-26-2019 12:22 PM


Re: what jar has said.
But what if they happened to be right? Perhaps even unknowingly? I think the point I am trying to make is that you cant put the Gods humans create in a box. Evidence is not the only method in finding truth...though it does provide us with information. If any of the God characters that humans describe actual;ly end up being similar to The Original(and One and only) then the reason, in my mind, is because of GOD not us finding the magic mystery.
You likely will then ask me why GOD should care any more about me than pond scum. I suppose that if I lay my fantasies and claims of entitlement and exclusivity on the Altar, I would agree with you. Why Should He? But I will ask you What If He Does? What if the ignorant Biblical Christians happened to be right? The issue at that point is your response to such a loving presence. You have said before that you would likely laugh. But would you cry? Be angry? Ask more questions and never settle for what you see? Or would you do as Billy Graham might have suggested and just simply surrender?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 94 (863573)
09-27-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
09-27-2019 11:18 AM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:
What if the ignorant Biblical Christians happened to be right? The issue at that point is your response to such a loving presence. You have said before that you would likely laugh. But would you cry? Be angry? Ask more questions and never settle for what you see? Or would you do as Billy Graham might have suggested and just simply surrender?
What if chocolate turns out to be Key Lime?
You ask absurd questions that of course have no honest answer beyond "I don't know but I certainly hope I would not simply surrender like an abject coward."

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 11:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 12:46 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 94 (863582)
09-27-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
09-27-2019 12:07 PM


Re: what jar has said.
You ask absurd questions that of course have no honest answer beyond "I don't know but I certainly hope I would not simply surrender like an abject coward."
No wonder you never got saved. j/k...I respect your arguments though they always challenge me.
So let me get this straight:
  • GOD is unknowable (despite Jesus) and there is no way to have evidence that GOD or Jesus ever existed. But according to you, it matters little...we still have mythos and tales told round the campfire!
  • Surrendering to God or Jesus..which is at best metaphorical...is cowardly. Standing up and assuming responsibility is the way to go. Entitlement, favor, and chosen people are all lies.
    Interesting...
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 12:07 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 1:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20027
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 41 of 94 (863585)
    09-27-2019 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
    09-27-2019 2:51 AM


    Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
    ICANT writes:
    What evidence is the assumption that the universe existed one trillionth of a second before the Big Bang Theory begins its story of how the universe began expanding.
    My point was that "assumptions" are not the wild guesses that people like you think they are. Every assumption used in science is tested by science.

    Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
    -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 2:51 AM ICANT has not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33957
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 42 of 94 (863586)
    09-27-2019 1:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
    09-27-2019 12:46 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    Phat writes:
    GOD is unknowable (despite Jesus) and there is no way to have evidence that GOD or Jesus ever existed.
    Again, not what I have said. What I have said is that so far absolutely no one has ever presented either evidence of the existence of GOD or Jesus or any way that it might be possible to know GOD or Jesus.
    If someone can present the model, process, method, mechanism or procedure to do such things then we could begin testing.
    Phat writes:
    Surrendering to God or Jesus..which is at best metaphorical...is cowardly.
    Again, not what I have said. Simply surrendering to an all powerful despot is cowardly.
    Phat writes:
    Entitlement, favor, and chosen people are all lies.
    No Phat but they are very easy to market fantasies with absolutely no legal risk and no fear of product liability suits.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 12:46 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:41 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16371
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 43 of 94 (863590)
    09-27-2019 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by jar
    09-27-2019 1:08 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:
    Simply surrendering to an all-powerful despot is cowardly.
    I see no evidence that surrendering one's mind and heart to Jesus is in any way cowardly. Nor do I see that Jesus can be properly defined as a despot.
    Google Dictionary writes:
    despot: a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.
    tyrant dictator absolute ruler totalitarian authoritarian autocrat oppressor autarch monocrat
    jar writes:
    What I have said is that so far absolutely no one has ever presented either evidence of the existence of GOD or Jesus or any way that it might be possible to know GOD or Jesus.
    If someone can present the model, process, method, mechanism or procedure to do such things then we could begin testing.
    That likely won't happen. Besides, scripture suggests that though all are called, few choose. Many will go about bleating "Lord, Lord" after the fact...when the sky is falling...but they will seek Him due to fear and not due to a desire to know Him. There are many, however, who have good hearts and who do what He commanded even though they have no profession of faith or belief for Him. The mainstream church never teaches that all are or will be saved. God, Himself may just overrule that belief.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : appallin spallin

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 1:08 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 4:15 PM Phat has replied
     Message 46 by ringo, posted 09-27-2019 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33957
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 44 of 94 (863596)
    09-27-2019 4:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
    09-27-2019 3:41 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    Phat writes:
    Nor do I see that Jesus can be properly defined as a despot.
    Do you see Jesus as holding absolute power?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:41 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 4:52 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16371
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 45 of 94 (863601)
    09-27-2019 4:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by jar
    09-27-2019 4:15 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:
    Do you see Jesus as holding absolute power?
    This is an interesting question. I will just share my thoughts...
    I believe that GOD has absolute power. GOD has power in that through Him all things came into being. Either directly or indirectly. I also believe that Jesus is Gods character. While I will agree with you that he was human while on earth...and holding no power of his own, he could have called angels to help him...the devil even wanted him to turn stones into bread...which technically he may have been able to do...but at what cost? The lesson seems to be to humble oneself rather than exalt oneself. We are called to be imitators of Jesus and take up LaCrosse.
    Now that He has died and risn again, (according to belief) He may well be able to exercise absolute power in the same way that GOD always has been able to do. Yet even GOD allowed Lucifer to freely choose to become Satan. Critics would say that GOD blew it...and that perhaps He was simply learning on the job...when in reality it has always been *we* who are learning on the job, passing our wisdom and experience down through the generations. (or having History record our mistakes and blunders and letting whosoever shall learn from our mistakes.
    So to answer the question in context, Jesus does have absolute power and knows when and when not to apply it. I highly doubt that He will use it to re-elect Donald trump nor make America great again. I suspect that He knows how hard each of us tries and does on a daily basis---with perfect knowledge--and that someday he may say "It Is Finished". But that call is on Him and not I. My only responsibility is to try and do my best every day and to not simply throw Him away and forget the communion which we have.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 4:15 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 47 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 6:44 PM Phat has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.1
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022