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Author Topic:   The pristine question
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 17 (862650)
09-09-2019 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ssope
09-08-2019 2:42 AM


pristine?
Hi ssope, and welcome to the fray.
I find your word choice a little curious:
The pristine question
quote:
pristine
adjective
  1. having its original purity; uncorrupted or unsullied.
  2. of or relating to the earliest period or state; primitive.

Can you explain why you chose this word (expand on it)?
If evolution is truly a mindless bio-chemical process, I'm confused on how it would produce an organism with a motivation to stay alive. How does a chemical reaction produce a molecule that prefers one future outcome over another (life or death). How do you motivate a mindless molecule to actively pursue life. Why would it care. How could it care
First off evolution only deals with life, not the origin of life (that falls under the science of abiogenesis):
quote:
2. the theory that the earliest life forms on earth developed from nonliving matter
Tangle, in Message 8, explains that the mindless chemical reactions occur due to the functions of chemistry - the chemical reactions only occur in certain ways.
We also know that prebionic molecules exist in space and were common on the surface of the earth and in the oceans. see Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I) and Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II) for more on this.
They are old threads, and much has been learned since, but they give you an idea of the current research into this question of the origin of life on earth.
Of course, once life exists, evolution takes over, and you have a two-step process that mindlessly "chooses" those forms by their relative ability to survive and reproduce better:
Like walking on first one foot and then the next.
The earliest, simple life forms known are single cell blue-green algae, and they would be subject to the processes of evolution, which we can define as:
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats.
We can also define life as any formation of molecules that undergoes evolution.
These evolutionary processes are also mindless, and as Stile explains in Message 6, they occur over many generations before the first "minds" evolve, and more generations before minds aware of what is happening around them, or become conscious of being part of the processes.
It's like equating a consciously chosen hike across the united states with a baby's first stumbling steps. There's a lot that happens in between.
Enjoy.
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Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ssope, posted 09-08-2019 2:42 AM ssope has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-09-2019 10:30 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 14 of 17 (862668)
09-09-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ssope
09-09-2019 1:31 AM


this ID topic is to be approached scientifically
My question is partly probing the idea that scientific explanations bottom out at a certain point, particularly at this point. ...
The open-minded skeptic will say that we do not have the knowledge and information at this time to answer the question of how life came to exist on earth. We know that it did not exist 4.5 billion years ago, but that it did exist 3.5 billion years ago. We also know that the first known life was primitive single cell organisms with no nucleus in the cell, that it took another billion years to develop cells with nucleii and multicellular life.
The lack of knowledge does not mean {god/s} or their surrogate "Intelligent" Designers were involved, for we have even less evidence of that process even existing.
... Ultimately I am making a case for intelligent design, but I am not explicitly going to express my aim to the reader, ...
Then you are off to a bad start: you haven't made a case for anything but a (probably temporary) absence of knowledge.
... I want the reader to question themselves while recognizing any gaps in their knowledge. ...
Current gaps in knowledge prove nothing but a current gap in knowledge. The open-minded skeptic will say that there is no need to jump to conclusions until more information is available. Those interested in the question can pursue it scientifically as much as they like. Something IDologists seem incapable, or remarkably reluctant, of actually doing.
... yes, this topic is to be approached scientifically. ...
Then you might want to get started.
Please see my thread Is ID properly pursued? -- it explores what is needed to undertake a scientific approach:
quote:
The search for the evidence of design must be done by those with the most capable trained "eyes" free of constrained perspectives - the most open and complete knowledge of the physical workings of the universe and all it contains ... matter, energy, life. Anything less will likely lead to mistakes or a lack of understanding to see the actual fingerprints of design.
Without as complete a base of knowledge as possible we could be looking at a watch with the mind of a frog, or we could be like a child, bemused by a kaleidoscope of pattern when there is none ... we could be unable to properly observe and evaluate the evidence before us.
This brings me to the concept of the Open-Minded Skeptic -- a person willing to entertain the possibility of concepts such as ID, but skeptical of the probability, given the lack of evidence for it. One who is as skeptical of his knowledge as he is of the knowledge of others.
If you have scientific evidence for ID, then by all means present it.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 17 of 17 (862711)
09-11-2019 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tanypteryx
09-10-2019 10:12 PM


Re: Drive-by? School?
I guess ssope only had one question...
Another thought is that it's a new school year, and we could be seeing something related to assignments ...
We'll see.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-10-2019 10:12 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
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