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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Stories about prayer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: I'm interested in the subject of answered prayer and want to choose examples where it seems clear that is what happened. What you want to do is exactly what you did when you were sure you'd be raptured. It's motivated thinking and confirmation bias - over-inflating the importance of hits, discarding misses and refusing to critically evaluate anything. You're also trying to tell us that everyday, common events are somehow miraculous - that's just daft. The efficacy of prayer has been properly tested; it doesn't work.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
I'm interested in the subject of answered prayer and want to choose examples where it seems clear that is what happened. Of course you are. And you even made some mention of the filtering process being used. But shouldn't you make your intentions as explicitly clear as possible? Is your intention just to examine the extremely small set of what might be answered prayers? Or is your intention to imply that many prayers are answered? If your intention is the former, then what aspects of those answered prayers are you interested in investigating? If your intention is the latter, then you are in danger of misrepresenting your data set (also, I am assuming that you know what "former" and "latter" mean, which I realize could be a stretch). There is an overall set of all events. There is a subset of those events in which prayers were uttered. Given that the vast majority of those events involve multiple people, the probability that nobody within that sample had uttered any prayer at all, regardless of to whichever god. Within that subset, there is a narrower subset of those whose prayers were to the Christian god. Within that subset, there is a far narrower subset of those whose prayers could possibly be interpreted as having been answered. You want to concentrate on that smallest, most narrow subset of events. Just exactly how representative is that smallest, most narrow subset of events? And are you going to be honest about how small and narrow it is? Why do I not feel optimistic about this?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Very simple case of being impressed with the couple of instances I described, no ulterior motives, not interested in proving anything statistical, not interested in how representative they are of the whole range of prayer experiences, just thought the cases were interesting in themselves and wanted to see if I could collect more of them. I also have the simpleminded aim of encouraging people to pray in difficult situations, and being simpleminded I forgot everything I say is going to be challenged.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Would that be the same "day" as Adam and Eve dying on the same "day" that they ate the fruit? I believe that all prayers were answered that day. Edited by ringo, : No reason given.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
So the question remains unanswered: And are you going to be honest about how small and narrow [that set which consists of "answered prayers"] is?
IOW, a simple disclaimer and statement of intent so as to make your intentions quite clear. Shouldn't be too much to ask for or to suggest, yet this is suddenly becoming yet another inconvenient question for you to dodge.
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good one! Actually, 9/11/2001 is a well known and documented day.
The larger question is whether:1) God exists...and if so, hears and/or cares about prayer. 2)A praying individual has a better probability of survival than one who is silent or simply screams 3)Addressing the larger question as to why God only answers *some* prayers. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm more interested in the smaller question, the one I asked. If you can fudge a "day" in Genesis into a whole lifetime, how does God answering prayer "on the same day" work? Does it mean in my lifetime? Or Adam's lifetime? The larger question is.... Or is it just another sound bite with no meaning?
Phat writes:
As I mentioned to Faith, I answer *some* prayers. How is that different from what God does? ... why God only answers *some* prayers.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have very few examples, I expect to have very few examples. Is that what you want me to say?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
And she ducks and dodges again. Sheesh!
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer? Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Another instance on Forensic Files though it's not a clear one at all. Man convicted of raping and murdering a young woman confessed to it and keeps confessing to it when asked but eventually says he had been scared into confessing by threats from his interrogators and seeks the help of an organization to prove his innocence. In this process he describes himself as praying to God to help him get out of this mess he's gotten himself into.
Some time later, no indication how long, another prisoner has a "spiritual awakening," becomes a Christian and confesses to the crime. The first man had been convicted partly from forensic evidence so all that had to be reviewed and errors were found and corrected. Finally after twelve years he goes free and the man who had become a Christian accepts his guilt. Not at all a clearcut case of answered prayer but it's about believers in God and the truth finally coming out so justice could be done. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Am I stuttering? I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting. Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer? For the third time: You said in Message 14, "I believe that all prayers were answered that day." (September 11, 2001) You also believe, if I recall correctly, that in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve did die "the same day" as they ate the fruit - but they actually lived a whole lifetime before they died. So does "that day" (September 11, 2001) also mean a whole lifetime? Are you allowing a whole lifetime for an answer to prayer? And whose lifetime? The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?
Phat writes:
Well, I would, if I could. Wouldn't you? Why would we expect less from a god than we expect from each other? What would the value of that God be? Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I believe that they did. Granted their remaining lifetime was a matter of minutes. I believe that prayers made before September 11th would get answered. I believe that prayers made on September 11th, at the moment of awareness of mortality were earnest prayers and would be answered. It could well be that the people especially who jumped had the bolstered confidence of an answered prayer to give them the strength to do that. Of course, a room full of fire would drive anyone out. What makes you think that even atheists didn't have a desperate hope and belief of salvation...or leaving peace with family---milliseconds before they perished? Wghat else would one think about when their death was all but certain? Which leads to a rhetorical question: Are there atheists in foxholes? What do they think about should death come knocking? I would go so far as to argue that whatever is uttered in those final seconds resembles a prayer more than normal daily conversation. The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There are lots of miracle stories from 9/11, people who didn't go to the tower that day by some fluke, people who got out miraculously, people who got saved that day, a woman who in retrospect is sure it was an angel who helped her get out. I don't remember stories about prayer, but I do remember a lot of miracle stories.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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So those that died didn't believe enough? The deserved it?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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