Jesus - Wholly Man - Wholly God

I looked through my library and I couldn't find one that would really fit the bill. I have read works by people like Dom Crossan and Markus Borg. They have some interesting insights and both deny the bodily resurrection. (Borg unfortunately passed away last year.) I considered their views but frankly their argument boiled down to the idea that they knew it couldn't happen, (people who are dead stay dead) and so any other explanation is preferable. One idea they put out was that just as people claim to have visions of some sort with loved ones after they have passed on. However, that makes no sense of the accounts of Jesus appearing to multiple people at the same time. Primarily for me though, none of the possibilities of what happened that they put forward made any historical sense for the early rise of Christianity.The point is that and I have done the best I can to read about my faith from as many perspectives as I can. I have found that by looking at Jesus in His historical context, it altered much of what I had previously accepted and so many things fell into place for me.If anyone knows of any good historical books from that era please let me know.Incidentally, I have just pre-ordered a new book by Wright entitled The New Testament in Its World: An Introduction to the History, Literature, and Theology of the First ChristiansThe book I mentioned earlier called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire was definitely not a book of apologetics even though it was put out by a Christian publishing house. It was very interesting in that it is clear that the early church was not about evangelizing. It was actually primarily a social movement based on Jesus' command to love their neighbours. They were particularly looking to attract new adherents, and those they did attract came because they were attracted to a new way of living based on sacrificial love. They actually had to go through a fairly rigorous process prior to being baptized into the church. In spite of what you may think it was a very well researched historical work.It is my hope and belief that today's church is inching its way back towards that view.

The following is from thr preface of a book outlining Wright's views but not by Wright.

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Tom has spent most of his time in England. He school he focused on the "classics" then spent 3 years at Exeter College in Oxford studying classic, (Greek and Roman) literature leading to a BA. As you can tell he likes stories and older times. In 1971 he added two years of theology to the mix and graduated with a second BA in theology. He studied another four years at Oxford in Anglican ministry and finished with an MA. He then stayed at Downing College in Cambridge as Fellow and Chaplain from 1978 to 1981 and completed his doctorate.

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He has taught Greek at the university level and also has Latin. I read somewhere that he also gained fluency in Aramaic as well as some of the European languages but I can't remember the source of that information.

I think I'll go a little further into tis I want to go a little further into this which is one of the main points I was trying to make in the talk, and a point I think we will disagree on. A know that there are Gospel accounts that seem to contradict my point but I do not see Jesus the human being having supernatural knowledge of either the future or of any any life prior to His earthly existence. As an aside I agree with John Polkinghorne, (who first got me thinking about this), when he claims that God does not know the future either as the future is open and not there to be known.Yes, I believe that Jesus and others gain insight that from their beliefs, (not knowledge), through prayer and the study of the Scriptures, however the response is based on faith. I contend that this was true of Jesus. I suggest that this is clearest in Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane . As an aside, I am not saying by this that the miracles didn't happen, but I would contend that the miracles happened by God the Father responding to the prayers of Jesus.I outlined at the end of the talk how I see us coming to understand Jesus as God or maybe more accurately as Lord.

This subject quickly gets too heavy for me so I can only give a sketch of what I've thought about it, and a link to a page at Blue Letter Bible that says what I've generally thought but a lot more clearly.I reject the idea that Jesus was in any way ignorant of His divinity while on Earth. Scripture says He "emptied Himself" in order to live life as a man, but that doesn't mean He gave up consciousness of His identity as God, just that He willingly submitted to the limitations of humanity. As a man He had to learn to live as a human being the way we all do, had to learn to walk and talk as a toddler, use His body and grow into that use and so on. But in all that there is no reason to think He stopped being God in any sense or wasn't aware of being God.To what extent He used His divine powers in the miracles I'd have to read up on more, because as you say it's possible that He could have prayed and God the Father gave the miracle. The incidents themselves give the impression that He simply did the miracles Himself however. I may read further on this and have a better idea of it but for now I'd say I'm not completely sure about how He did these things but that I AM sure He didn't lack the knowledge of being God Himself.Here's how the commentary at at Blue Letter Bible puts it: So the idea is that He was limited as we all are by simply being in a physical human body, and He also limited Himself consciously to live an authentic human life, but that He was always conscious of having the nature of God as well.When at twelve He goes to the temple to dispute with the rabbis He explains that He must "be about My Father's business." Well he certainly isn't talking about Joseph's business. I guess you could say He was referring to God as His Father in the sense that He's everybody's Fathre, but I think it shows that at that age He knew that His Father was God in a much more direct sense, that He was begotten by God. I'm sure you too could add passages from the scriptures that say pretty much the same thing. It would be very odd if by the age of twelve His parents had not told Him of the circumstances of His birth too, the announcement by the angel and so on.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So nothing to show he can read the original sources. It takes more than a B.A. to be able to critically analyze texts in the original Greek and Aramaic. I am not saying he cannot.
I am just saying you have not provided evidence to support your assertions.

And at age 14 when Mary caught him in bed with a little bulge in the covers and a copy of the Turin Papyrus in one hand.

The Blue Letter Bible commentary is quite clear that Jesus lived as a man would, by dependence on God through prayer, and that He did His miracles through the Holy Spirit: So your view of how He lived as a man is mostly corroborated by all this, only the idea that He had no consciousness of being God is not. There are a couple places in scripture where it is clear He used His omniscience too: as when He told the woman at the well all about her past life, when He recognized the disciple as "having no guile" before He even met him.Might as well add the Summary: Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I'd just like to focus on this. I don't see Jesus' self understanding as seeing Himself as God. He did however in my view combine two threads out of the Hebrew Scriptures and apply them to Himself.The first was the arrival of the messiah and the second was the return of Yahweh to the Jews. He certainly saw Himself as the messiah for a multitude of reasons but He also IMHO saw Himself as somehow embodying the return of Yahweh. He clearly demonstrated the He saw Himself as a Temple replacement by forgiving sins. He even talked about the Jews missing the time of Yahweh's visitation. He also talked in seeing Him they were also seeing the Father, and by this, it seems clear to me that He understood that He was embodying the true nature of the Father.Once again though I don't think that this came to Him supernaturally but simply through prayer and His understanding of Scriptures, which He seemed to have understood in a way that none of His countrymen, (at least that we know of), did at the time.

I wish I'd kept track of a series my pastor did in which he showed that Jesus consciously claimed to be God in a great number of ways we don't normally think of. The only one that comes to mind at the moment is where He says, John 17 I think? -- Before Abraham was, I AM." Well, in order to claim that He is the embodiment of Jehovah (I really don't like the revisionist name Yahweh), He has to embrace such a passage as the one in Isaiah that describes the Messiah as "Wonderful, Counsellor, Almighty God, Prince of Peace," and the one in Jeremiah that describes the Messiah as "God our Righteousness." Both pretty clearly call Him God, implying an identity rather than just a representation. Of course as God He actually authored the scriptures, so He would simply have known them, they didn't even need to "come to Him" as they might to us.ABE: Meant to address this: "Who can forgive sins but God" is what that passage says, it doesn't impute the forgiveness of sins to the Temple. And of course referring to Himself as the visitation of God He is claiming to BE God, not just represent Him, also in the case of claiming to show the Father through His own Person -- can't accept your reducing that to a matter of showing God simply through His character.Then there was where He says how He had wanted to comfort Jerusalem but "you wouldn't come to Me" He's clearly saying He's God, not a representation of God.ABE: Interesting, arguing with you about these things is pretty similar to arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. You don't deny that Jesus IS God of course, but by insisting on His complete ignorance of being God you require me to come up with the same answers I'd have to with a JW.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Jesus wouldn't misuse the organ He Himself designed to express love.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Not misuse.Exercise. Practice.I know you christians think it so but it's really not evil, Faith.And if god was brought down and was fully human then guess what?

Masturbation is not misuse. It is use.

I should know better than to try to outwit the kid acting up in church.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

An understandable sin for fallen humanity, but not use.

No, I haven't.Explain it to me, please.In graphic detail.