Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 60 (9209 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Skylink
Post Volume: Total: 919,461 Year: 6,718/9,624 Month: 58/238 Week: 58/22 Day: 13/12 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 499 of 785 (856025)
06-25-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Faith
06-25-2019 5:31 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
The evidence of genetic loss through evolution is in domestic breeding where it's obvious that you can't get your chosen breed without losing all the genetic material for anything that would interfere with it.
Mutations would start occurring right after the genetic bottleneck. This would start increasing genetic variation over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 5:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 5:35 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 501 of 785 (856029)
06-25-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Faith
06-25-2019 5:35 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
Well, it doesn't happen and isn't going to happen but I guess that doesn't deter you.
All vertebrates are born with mutations. The process never stops.
If you think I am wrong, then please cite studies showing that when a breed is formed they all stop producing mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 5:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 6:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 503 of 785 (856036)
06-25-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Faith
06-25-2019 6:24 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
As a rule mutations do not show up to change the traits of purebred animals, and I suppose if it happens it gets weeded out of the population anyway.
Or, the new mutation can be the basis of a new breed.
Either way, mutations continue to happen and increase variation.
And of course we know the cheetah is still waiting for the mutation that could save it from extinction, and while the elephant seals seem to be doing fine even with their depleted genetic diversity so they aren't desperate for a mutation, as far as I know none has shown up in their population anyway.
Please show that new mutations are not happening in those populations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 518 of 785 (856102)
06-26-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by Faith
06-26-2019 3:18 AM


Re: Right, the same old same old
Faith writes:
if I say I'm not convinced of something it's because I'm not convinced of it, not because I "can't refute" it.
Flat Earthers are not convinced the Earth is round, and yet it is still round. Reality has this strange property of not conforming itself to our beliefs.
More to the point, your creation model can not explain the observed facts.
The evolutionary model does explain these facts, and you have not presented any arguments showing that the evolutionary model does not predict these observed facts.
All we are left with is your denial in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is nothing more than Flat Earthism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 06-26-2019 3:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 522 of 785 (856109)
06-26-2019 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Faith
06-26-2019 4:09 PM


Re: Kinds reproduce according to their kind
Faith writes:
And you've missed the whole point that anything that gets added has to get cut down to create a new species
You don't have to remove new mutations to create a new species. You can select for the new mutations and remove the original alleles through selection. Rinse and repeat.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Faith, posted 06-26-2019 4:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Faith, posted 06-27-2019 5:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 547 of 785 (856186)
06-28-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Faith
06-27-2019 5:27 PM


Re: Kinds reproduce according to their kind
Faith writes:
Yes it's possible to select all mutations for the new species, but whatever is selected requires the loss of other genetic material that is excluded from the new phenotypes.
How is that a problem?
You still end up with an overall loss of genetic variability, even if you manage to get a new population completely made up of brand new mutations.
Again, how is that a problem? Why would an evolving species need to keep ancestral alleles in order for evolution to happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Faith, posted 06-27-2019 5:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 548 of 785 (856192)
06-28-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 532 by Faith
06-28-2019 12:48 AM


Re: Genetic loss is a necessity
Faith writes:
Except that you aren't going to get the new population unless you have the decrease. Pretty obvious if you think about domestic breeds. You could start with a very homogeneous original/parent population with a distinct appearance and high genetic diversity, a species in itself, but getting a NEW breed requires a portion of that original population to be separated from it and isolated for breeding just within itself. THEN you get a new species or new breed.
You are forgetting about the mutations that happen along the way which increases genetic diversity. If you have both increases and decreases then you have the same amount of diversity through the whole process. Some alleles are added and some are removed. They balance each other out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 12:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 549 of 785 (856195)
06-28-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
06-28-2019 2:42 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
As I was thinking through this list it hit me that Mutation and gene flow ADD to the genetic variability, and must create a scattered effect of phenotypes. What makes for a homogeneous species, on the other hand, is the subtractive processes of selection.
Humans aren't homogenous. No species is homogenous. Every species has alleles for different genes. There is genetic diversity among cheetahs, even if it is low.
What happens is that a set of traits is randomly selected by the separation of a portion of the parent population to become a daughter population. That random separation of a certain group of individuals forms a new gene pool with new gene frequencies that when blended together over some number of generations of breeding brings out a distinctively new species from a new group of phenotypes created by the new gene frequencies in sexual recombination for those generations. It's the same process as what happens in domestic breeding except that a set of traits is randomly selected out of the population to form the new species.
You are ignoring mutations. If the two populations are not interbreeding then different mutations will start to build up in each population which results in divergence over time.
The ToE says that evolution is powered by benefit to survival and reproduction, but in my model no such selective pressures need apply and usually don't.
You are ignoring mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 2:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 7:07 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 595 of 785 (856510)
07-01-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
06-28-2019 7:07 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
No population is *perfectly* homogeneous but the wildebeests are pretty homogeneous, both the black herd and the blue herd;
No single genome is homogeneous. I don't know of any diploid species where the two copies of their genome in each cell both have the same exact alleles for every gene. I would strongly suspect that you are heterozygous for many alleles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 7:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 596 of 785 (856511)
07-01-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
06-30-2019 7:01 AM


Re: The genetic loss idea IS reality
Faith writes:
Maybe if I write an article I'll discuss all of this, but it's nothing much: only mutations which you believe make new alleles and I don't;
Can you please point to a specific allele and explain why it could not be produced by mutations? Which differences are you saying could not be product of mutations?
Can you show us a single difference between the chimp and human genomes that mutations could not produce? If not, then your claims fall flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-30-2019 7:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:35 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 597 of 785 (856512)
07-01-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Faith
06-30-2019 9:42 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
I'm guessing about the high genetic diversity of the wildebeests but my evidence is that they rarely form new populations, they remain an enormous homogeneous population,
If they have high genetic diversity then they aren't homogeneous. I don't think you understand the meaning of those words.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 06-30-2019 9:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:31 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 600 of 785 (856519)
07-01-2019 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Faith
07-01-2019 1:23 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
Including genetics in my post isn't the same thing as arguing from the genomic perspective, I'm always arguing from how you produce new phenotypes. That's by reducing genetic diversity
That's false. You get new phenotypes by mutation. The step where genetic diversity is lost is during the selection phase which comes after the emergence of the new phenotype.
A great example of this process is seen in the Lederberg plate replica experiment. In this experiment they select for antibiotic resistance. The mutations that confer antibiotic resistance happen early, and are only later selected for.
Just a moment...
Before selection you have a lot of variation caused by mutations, and a lot of phenotypes. When you apply selection, in the form of antibiotics, you reduce variation, but also selection for the pre-existing new phenotype.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 603 of 785 (856522)
07-01-2019 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Faith
07-01-2019 1:31 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
I"M USING HOMOGENEOUS TO DESCRIBE THE GENERAL APPEARANCE OF A POPULATIONL,
Have you looked at the human population?
IN THE MAINJ POPULATION OF WILDEBEESTS THEY ARE ALL GENERALLY BROWN IN APPEARANCE, DESPITE THEIR GENETIC DIVERSITY. I'VE OFTEN WONDERED WHAT IT IS GENETICALLY THAT CREATES THAT SITUATION.
Have you ever surveyed phenotypic diversity among wildebeests? I'm guessing you haven't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:37 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 608 of 785 (856547)
07-01-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by Faith
07-01-2019 1:35 PM


Re: The genetic loss idea IS reality
Faith writes:
I DON'T THINK ANY ALLELES EVER NEED TO BE PRODUCED BY MUTATIONS.
That's not what I asked. I asked for you to point to a single genetic difference between alleles that could not be produced by mutations. You claim that alleles can not be produced this way, so back up your claim. Point to a change that mutations can't produce and explain why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 609 of 785 (856548)
07-01-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Faith
07-01-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:
THE HUMAN POPULATION HAS HIGHER GENETIC AND PHENOTYPIC DIVERSITY, BUT IF YOU ISOLATE ANY GROUP OF HUMANS FOR A LONG TIME YOU'LL GET SOMETHING FAR MORE HOMOGENEOUS JUST AS YOU DO WITH ANY ANIMALS. YOU'LL GET A RACE.
You will also get new mutations because each and every generation has new mutations. Why do you keep ignoring this fact?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 1:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 3:59 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024