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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 364 of 785 (855538)
06-20-2019 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:34 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
Similar design. AS I SAID.
No, you said they were unique. Now you are saying they are similar designs. Which is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:38 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 366 of 785 (855540)
06-20-2019 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:38 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
Unique designs can be similar. Why not?
So did God start with a common design for all apes, and then change it a little bit for chimps, gorillas, orangutans, and humans? Why do chimps share more DNA with humans than they do with gorillas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:52 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 369 of 785 (855544)
06-20-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:52 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
God didn't change ANYTHING, he designed a genome for each Kind.
But you said they are a similar design, so wouldn't that mean the similar design was changed for each species?
Must be because the body design is more similar to the human body design.
Very little of a genome affects body design, so why are the parts not involved in body design also similar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 1:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 370 of 785 (855546)
06-20-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:40 PM


Faith writes:
There is no reason that I know of why the creation model should try to explain any of that. It's all an artifact of the ToE.
The patterns of differences are observable facts. Are you saying that the creation model can't explain these facts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 1:33 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 377 of 785 (855594)
06-20-2019 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by JonF
06-20-2019 1:30 PM


Faith writes:
The pattern God chose.
This means your model can't predict these features.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by JonF, posted 06-20-2019 1:30 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 8:23 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 378 of 785 (855595)
06-20-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by Faith
06-20-2019 1:36 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
The only similar design I recall mentioning was chimp and human. And there is no implication of anything changing.
There absolutely is an implication of changes. If you start with a similar design and end up with two different designs then it means there were changes to that similar design. That's how that works. Different models of Ford Ranger pickups have both differences and similarities, and this is due to changes in each model from a similar design.
Why not?
Once again, your model can't explain these observations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 1:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 8:37 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 379 of 785 (855596)
06-20-2019 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Faith
06-20-2019 1:33 PM


Faith writes:
They're all mutations, right?
They are differences.
So the creation model explains them as mistakes in replication that may or may not harm the genome.
Then why are there more differences between the mouse and human cytochrome c genes than between the human and chimp cytochrome c gene? Why do the introns of the cytochrome c gene differ more between human, mouse, and chimp than the exons from that gene?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 1:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by JonF, posted 06-20-2019 7:42 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 8:40 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 389 of 785 (855661)
06-21-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
06-20-2019 8:40 PM


Faith writes:
To a creationist it's a meaningless question.
Then the creationist model can not explain the observed facts, as expected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 8:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 390 of 785 (855663)
06-21-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
06-20-2019 8:37 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
The "similar design" refers to TWO similar but different designs.
And yet you can't explain the pattern of those observed and factual differences. Evolution can.
In the case of chimp and human they are completely separate designs.
They share 98% of their design, so they aren't separate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 436 of 785 (855875)
06-24-2019 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Faith
06-22-2019 12:13 PM


Faith writes:
What you are calling the "scientific facts" I'm supposedly "admitting I can't explain" are what I've been saying are relevant to the ToE but not to Creationism. That being the case there is nothing for me to explain.
The reason that reality is not relevant to the creation model is because the creation model is not a part of reality.
You have confirmed that your creation model is false since it can't explain what we see in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 06-22-2019 12:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 2:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 465 of 785 (855923)
06-24-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Faith
06-24-2019 2:23 PM


Faith writes:
Saying it's not relevant to the creation model is not the same thing as saying I can't explain it. I would probably explain it as mutations that are mistakes that don't change anything.
That doesn't explain it.
Your model would require the chimp and human genome to be identical at the beginning of creation. We know that this can't be the case, otherwise there wouldn't be a separate ape and human kind as you claim there had to be.
Therefore, the genomes had to start out differently within the creation model. It can't be due to mutations. Therefore, you need to explain why we see specific patterns in those differences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 2:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 6:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 466 of 785 (855924)
06-24-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
06-24-2019 5:20 PM


Faith writes:
No need for mutation, there's plenty of variation built into the genome of each species to account for all the phenomena that wrongly get attributed to mutations just because they seem to be needed by the ToE.
So are mutations responsible for the differences, or not? You seem to be bouncing between the two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 5:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 7:02 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 486 of 785 (855979)
06-25-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Faith
06-24-2019 6:58 PM


Faith writes:
That makes no sense, Taq, and I don't know what makes you persist in such an idea.
Your posts support this idea. You said that the differences between the chimp and human genomes was due to mutations:
"I would probably explain it as mutations that are mistakes that don't change anything."
If mutations are not responsible for the differences between the human and chimp genomes, then you need to name this mechanism and explain how that mechanism predicts the patterns we see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 6:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 487 of 785 (855980)
06-25-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Faith
06-25-2019 7:08 AM


Re: Kinds reproduce according to their kind
Faith writes:
Yes mutations add to genetic diversity and the formation of new species requires subtracting from it.
Mutations don't stop happening after selection. They keep ticking away in each and every generation.
Mutations prevent a species from forming and destroy one that has already formed.
That's entirely made up.
Yes, theoretically they could add a new trait, but in practice I don't think they even accomplish that much,
Reality doesn't conform to what you think.
We can sequence the genomes of parents and their children. In doing so, we can measure the rate of ongoing mutation which is about 100 mutations per person per generation. Would you agree that this happens? Would you like me to go through the scientific studies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Faith, posted 06-25-2019 7:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10298
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 492 of 785 (855999)
06-25-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by JonF
06-25-2019 2:32 PM


JonF writes:
She's saying that the nested hierarchy can't be created by mutations. So stupifyingly wrong that it's difficult to address.
Indeed. If Faith understood biology she would know that you can't have nested hierarchies without random mutations, along with vertical inheritance. If mutations were non-random then you would have the same mutations in different branches which don't follow a nested pattern. Random mutations create lineage specific change which is the basis for the nested hierarchies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by JonF, posted 06-25-2019 2:32 PM JonF has not replied

  
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