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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
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Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 300 of 785 (855229)
06-17-2019 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:19 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
I'm sorry, that's just another assertion and of course all the "evidence" in those posts is in blinding white charts I can't begin to read.
It's evidence, not an assertion. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
And you do say very strange things that convince me you couldn't see evidence against mutations anyway.
You owe me a new irony meter for the one you just broke.
You just got done telling me that you can't even look at the evidence for mutations, and then have the audacity of accusing me of ignoring evidence.
Your thinking is locked into mutations so tightly you can't think any other way and I have no reason to believe anything you call "evidence."
So says the person who can't even look at the evidence for mutations. You are projecting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 301 of 785 (855230)
06-17-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:25 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
All I see is assumptions that the differences between apes, such as chimps, and humans, are nothing but mutations.
I gave you the evidence, and you refuse to even look at it.
And then Taq says the most bizarre things about how God would have had to use mutations or something **** that and I know we're in Never-Never Land and nothing is ever going to make sense.
God couldn't use the same genome sequence in all species, could he? God would have had to use different genome sequences, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 330 of 785 (855281)
06-18-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:35 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
"Changes" from what?
Changes from each other. We can call them differences if you like.
Each is UNIQUE, none has been CHANGED from another, each is a separate design.
But they are different sequences, right?
Do you agree that different sequences can both be beneficial? If differences can be beneficial, then why can't differences caused by mutation also be beneficial?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 331 of 785 (855282)
06-18-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:31 AM


Re: My model: It's way different from evolution
Faith writes:
Of course it needs evidence, but it is a coherent model . . .
No, it isn't. Your model doesn't explain the pattern of differences between the genomes of species where transitions outnumber transversions and differences at CpG sites has the greatest number of differences relative to available bases. Your model also doesn't explain why we see more differences in introns than in exons when comparing genomes from many species. Your model also doesn't explain why we see a nested hierarchy.
Your model can't explain the observations we see, so it isn't coherent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-18-2019 11:29 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 340 of 785 (855319)
06-18-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Faith writes:
I don't see a need to be able to explain that pattern of differences. It fits your model, not mine.
The pattern of differences are observations. If your model can't explain what we see in nature then it isn't a coherent model.
It has never made any sense to me why evolution should form such a coherent pattern as a nested hierarchy anyway, . . .
It makes sense to anyone with a basic understanding of how genetics and inheritance works. For complex eukaryotes you can only inherit DNA vertically, from ancestor to descendant. Therefore, mutations that happen in a lineage stay in that lineage. This produces a pattern of shared DNA inherited from a common ancestor and lineage specific mutations. This is a nested hierarchy.

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 Message 334 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 341 of 785 (855322)
06-18-2019 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Faith writes:
None of it applies to my model though it may apply to evolution, though in the case of the nested hierarchy that doesn't even make much sense.
Why wouldn't the observation of ERV's in different genomes apply to your model? If your model can't incorporate the facts of biology, then it isn't a coherent model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 343 of 785 (855333)
06-18-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:48 PM


Faith writes:
It's meaningless in my model.
If observable facts are meaningless in your model then it isn't a coherent model.
There are all kinds of facts that can be ignored in contexts where they are irrelevant.
Can you explain why the genetic differences between species is irrelevant in your model? Don't the genetic differences between species explain the physical differences between species within your model?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:54 PM Taq has replied
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 345 of 785 (855336)
06-18-2019 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:54 PM


Faith writes:
That's silly. There are lots of observed facts that have no relevance whatever to a particular context.
Why don't DNA sequences have any relevance in your model?
Are you saying that your model can't explain anything about genetics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 6:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 348 of 785 (855345)
06-18-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:58 PM


Faith writes:
Differences between two unrelated species? You want to know why they are irrelevant? Isn't it obvious? To you they are related, that's why they aren't meaningless to you.
Why would the differences between genomes be irrelevant for two species that are not related?
The physical differences between species in my model might have an incidental interest, but it's your model that says they're genetically related, not mine.
In your model, what causes a chimp to give birth to a chimp and not a human? Is it because of the differences between the chimp and human genomes and the process of inheritance? How do you explain this phenomenon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 6:31 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 352 of 785 (855402)
06-19-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Faith
06-18-2019 6:31 PM


Faith writes:
It's got a chimp genome. Period.
That's not what I asked. Please answer the question.
In your model, what causes a chimp to give birth to a chimp and not a human? Is it because of the differences between the chimp and human genomes and the process of inheritance? How do you explain this phenomenon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 6:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 7:17 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 353 of 785 (855406)
06-19-2019 11:32 AM


How does the creationist model explain this?
Let's look at a vital human gene, cytochrome c.
Below are the two coding sequences for cytochrome c in humans and chimps.
Human                    ATGGGTGATGTTGAGAAAGGCAAGAAGATTTTTATTATGAAGTGTTCCCAGTGCCACACC
Chimp                    ATGGGTGATGTTGAGAAAGGCAAGAAGATTTTTATTATGAAGTGTTCCCAGTGCCATACC
                         ******************************************************** ***

Human                    GTTGAAAAGGGAGGCAAGCACAAGACTGGGCCAAATCTCCATGGTCTCTTTGGGCGGAAG
Chimp                    GTTGAAAAGGGAGGCAAGCACAAGACTGGGCCAAATCTCCATGGTCTCTTCGGGCGGAAG
                         ************************************************** *********

Human                    ACAGGTCAGGCCCCTGGATACTCTTACACAGCCGCCAATAAGAACAAAGGCATCATCTGG
Chimp                    ACAGGTCAGGCCCCTGGATATTCTTACACGGCCGCCAATAAGAACAAAGGCATCATCTGG
                         ******************** ******** ******************************

Human                    GGAGAGGATACACTGATGGAGTATTTGGAGAATCCCAAGAAGTACATCCCTGGAACAAAA
Chimp                    GGAGAGGATACACTGATGGAGTATTTGGAGAATCCCAAGAAGTACATCCCTGGAACAAAA
                         ************************************************************

Human                    ATGATCTTTGTCGGCATTAAGAAGAAGGAAGAAAGGGCAGACTTAATAGCTTATCTCAAA
Chimp                    ATGATCTTTGTCGGCATTAAGAAGAAGGAAGAAAGGGCAGACTTAATAGCTTATCTCAAA
                         ************************************************************

Human                    AAAGCTACTAATGAG
Chimp                    AAAGCTACTAATGAG
                         ***************
So how does the creationist model explain how out of 315 bases there are just 4 that are different between human and chimp? Why should we see two separately created species with such similar DNA?

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 7:18 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 356 of 785 (855524)
06-20-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
06-19-2019 7:17 PM


Faith writes:
In the creation model the question of the differences between chimp and human is utterly meaningless.
Then the creation model can't model biology because genetic differences are a biological fact. If you can't explain what we see in genetics, then your model doesn't work.
More to the point, the evolutionary model can explain all of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 7:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:22 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 357 of 785 (855525)
06-20-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Faith
06-19-2019 7:18 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
Similar design.
Did God start with a common design and make changes to it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 360 of 785 (855534)
06-20-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:16 PM


Re: How does the creationist model explain this?
Faith writes:
No, each design is unique to the creature.
Then why is 98% of the chimp genome identical to the human genome?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 362 of 785 (855536)
06-20-2019 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Faith
06-20-2019 12:22 PM


Faith writes:
Um, the creation model is all about genetic differences. Chimp bodies and human bodies are identifiable by their genetic differences as well as by morphology. I keep trying to figure out your thinking but all I know is that you are so tightly bound up in the ToE you can't grasp what I'm saying no matter how I put it.
Then what does the creation model predict for the patterns in those diffeences, or does it make any prediction at all? For example:
1. What should the pattern of differences be for transitions, transversions, and CpG's?
2. What should the pattern of differences be for a comparison of introns and exons?
3. What should the pattern of differences be between different groups of species?
Can the creation model make any predictions with respect to those differences?
But creationism DOES explain what you see in genetics.
So can the separate creation of each creature explain it.
Then it should be able to answer those 3 questions above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:40 PM Taq has replied
 Message 371 by JonF, posted 06-20-2019 1:30 PM Taq has replied

  
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