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Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 106 of 1104 (847431)
01-22-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 12:42 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
WookieeB writes:
Secondly, as to published research and evidence for ID, you appear to be quite unaware. There is quite a lot of research a out there (including peer-reviewed papers), as well as a number of books, websites, talks, etc. One was linked in the first post of this thread. More recently, there was a major mathematical paper released - http://bio-complexity.org/.../main/article/view/BIO-C.2018.4
Bio-Complexity is an ID vanity journal whose sole purpose is to publish papers that wouldn't pass real peer review in a real scientific journal. On top of that, all the paper demonstrated is that you can't get a specific function if mutations occur in specific spots in a protein. It didn't evidence anything beyond that.

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 Message 92 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 12:42 AM WookieeB has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 107 of 1104 (847436)
01-22-2019 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 2:07 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
WookieeB writes:
So you claim. But how about a recent article Parenteau, J. et al. (2019), Introns are mediators of cell response to starvation, Nature. that is more supportive of an ID view of things and puts another nail in the coffin for the 'Junk DNA' view that is common to Darwinian evolution.
Yeast are not humans. Also, there is more junk DNA than just introns.
Then I guess you do not understand at all what Axe's paper is about. His paper provided a challenge to how Darwinian evolution is supposed to act. It estimates how rare amino acid sequences are that generate functional protein folds, and as a measure of the content of specified complexity within enzymes that is very relevant to questions of ID.
Axe didn't demonstrate any of those claims.
1. Axe didn't model evolution because he used a derived sequence instead of an ancestral sequence. He tried to mutate one modern gene sequence into another modern gene sequence. That isn't how evolution works. He should have derived the ancestral sequence from consensus sequence, but he didn't.
2. Axe didn't determine if the protein had function. Axe only determined if it had beta-lactamase activity. Using Axe's criteria, none of the proteins in the human genome have function because they all lack beta-lactamase activity.
3. Axe didn't measure specified complexity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 2:07 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 5:54 PM Taq has replied

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 108 of 1104 (847439)
01-22-2019 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Taq
01-22-2019 2:41 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Taq writes:
The theory of evolution predicts that there were species in the past who had a mixture of human and ape features, and these fossils fit those predictions. When a theory makes a prediction and the facts bear out those predictions then those facts are evidence for the theory.
I agree with everything you said here. But you are missing the point.
The presentation of skulls is evidence of relation. And yes, if assuming the progression in time is true (realistically there are some problems with the picture, notably the starting skull), evolution predicts the progression and could be the process behind it. But ID can equally predict the progression (each could be designed that way) and it could be the process behind it. So could a combination of the two. So could the other one I threw out there, aliens could be experimenting and placed their creations in time on the earth and wanted to see what happened. The point is beyond there being a relation, the cause behind the relation is is not spoken of by the skulls.
The underlying problem I'm trying to point out is that evolution is the assumed process, and nothing else is considered based on the evidence. If the progression of skulls is only explained by evolution (which again I acknowledge could be one of many explanations), then evolution must explain the following as well -
Would you say that Corvettes evolved through an unguided, natural process?
Now of course, you can start to bring in other properties of life that the skulls might entail, but those would have to be discussed on their own. And though evolution has something to say about all those other properties as well, that is also where its case gets harder to make.
Though for the skulls alone, they do have a strong visual impact, especially if you have a preset process in mind behind it all. But all I am saying is that you cannot have a preset method in mind and what they speak to as to the process is neutral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Taq, posted 01-22-2019 2:41 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 01-22-2019 3:38 PM WookieeB has replied

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 109 of 1104 (847440)
01-22-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by PaulK
01-22-2019 2:35 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Paulk writes:
As evolution was, until Darwin and Wallace made their case
So your saying that in 150 years ID will be the reigning paradigm?
I also find it interesting that Wallace, co-discoverer of evolution by natural selection, ended up effectively siding with ID. He is considered by some to be a founding father for the modern ID movement.
How about Axe’s estimate of the proportion of protein sequences exhibiting enzymatic activity, since you listed that paper. And that’s one of the better pieces of ID work. See the critique here (though it is linked on the first page of this thread so you have had the chance to see it already.)
It hasnt been demonstrated that Axe is wrong. In the critique you cite, Hunt is not really arguing with Axe over the science, but just his conclusions based on the science. He really is just quibbling over a possible difference between rarity and isolation of protein sequences that lead to a functional protein fold. Axe showed that Hunt's conclusions were unwarranted in his response.
The idea that irreducible complexity cannot evolve is another common error
Shown how?
The idea of Junk DNA is alive and well (and hated by some supporters of Darwinian evolution - hence the ENCODE fiasco). A small function for some introns doesn’t really do much to change that.
I think you need to go look at again what "Junk DNA" is supposed to be. Introns having any function (I note how you added the adjective "small") means they are not Junk DNA.
Since the estimate is orders of magnitude too low and since it isn’t actually useful for probability calculations in many evolutionary scenarios it isn’t as useful as you think.
The orders of magnitude is debatable, but I don't think you can just assert they are too low. Sure, they do not apply to "many evolutionary scenarios", but it isn't claimed that they do. Just the formation of protein enzymes, which just happen to be in EVERY cell of EVERY living thing and are necessary for life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 2:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 110 of 1104 (847441)
01-22-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 3:19 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
WookieeB writes:
I agree with everything you said here. But you are missing the point.
The presentation of skulls is evidence of relation. And yes, if assuming the progression in time is true (realistically there are some problems with the picture, notably the starting skull), evolution predicts the progression and could be the process behind it. But ID can equally predict the progression (each could be designed that way) and it could be the process behind it.
What ID doesn't predict is a nested hierarchy.
"The history of life: looking at the patterns
The central ideas of evolution are that life has a history it has changed over time and that different species share common ancestors.
Here, you can explore how evolutionary change and evolutionary relationships are represented in "family trees," how these trees are constructed, and how this knowledge affects biological classification. You will also find a timeline of evolutionary history and information on some specific events in the history of life: human evolution and the origin of life."
The history of life: looking at the patterns - Understanding Evolution
Your cars will not fit into the same nested hierarchy. Instead, different parts will be mixed and matched in different models with no discernible nested hierarchy.
When the pattern of shared and derived features matches the pattern that evolution would produce then this is evidence for evolution. This is how the scientific method works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 3:19 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 5:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 111 of 1104 (847442)
01-22-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
WookieeB writes:
It hasnt been demonstrated that Axe is wrong. In the critique you cite, Hunt is not really arguing with Axe over the science, but just his conclusions based on the science. He really is just quibbling over a possible difference between rarity and isolation of protein sequences that lead to a functional protein fold. Axe showed that Hunt's conclusions were unwarranted in his response.
Axe tests for beta-lactamase activity to determine if a protein has function. If Axe used the same test on human proteins he would conclude that no proteins in the human genome have function because none of them have beta-lactamase activity.
Do you see the problem?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 3:37 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 1104 (847443)
01-22-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
quote:
So your saying that in 150 years ID will be the reigning paradigm?
No, I’m saying that a sufficiently strong case can overcome any philosophical bias. ID hasn’t much of a case and shows no sign of developing one. The ID movement hasn’t even agreed on a theory that could potentially replace evolution yet.
quote:
I also find it interesting that Wallace, co-discoverer of evolution by natural selection, ended up effectively siding with ID. He is considered by some to be a founding father for the modern ID movement.
Except he wasn’t really. The real founders were the Of Pandas and People crowd. Needless to say he never came up with a strong scientific case for those views (which may have stemmed from his adoption of Spiritualsm).
quote:
It hasnt been demonstrated that Axe is wrong. In the critique you cite, Hunt is not really arguing with Axe over the science, but just his conclusions based on the science. He really is just quibbling over a possible difference between rarity and isolation of protein sequences that lead to a functional protein fold.
But the rarity was the precise point I made. And when I read Axe’s response his attempt to deal with that is laughable. Written language is not the same as proteins.
quote:
Shown how?
For a start, Behe said as much in Darwin’s Black Box. Are you saying that Behe was wrong in that ?
Note also that Behe tried adopting a very different definition of irreducible complexity, and later dropped the idea. Hardly a sign of confidence in his argument.
quote:
I think you need to go look at again what "Junk DNA" is supposed to be. Introns having any function (I note how you added the adjective "small") means they are not Junk DNA.
Some introns having a function in one organism - that happens to have very few introns - is not much of a case against junk DNA, not least for the fact that it doesn’t touch the main arguments for it.
quote:
The orders of magnitude is debatable, but I don't think you can just assert they are too low
See the already cited article. Axe’s response offers no valid defence, so I am not simply asserting it - and you haven’t even successfully countered the arguments.
quote:
Sure, they do not apply to "many evolutionary scenarios", but it isn't claimed that they do. Just the formation of protein enzymes, which just happen to be in EVERY cell of EVERY living thing and are necessary for life.
It doesn’t apply for many scenarios involving the evolution of enzymes either. It can only be safely applied when a completely random sequence is generated. Which is not typical of evolution at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 3:37 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 6:41 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 113 of 1104 (847444)
01-22-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 2:28 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
You seem to have a reading comprehension issue.
WookieeB writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
My understanding is that the skulls in the image are arranged in chronological order but that there is no further data, in the image, as far as evolutionary ancestors and descendants relationships.
Even if we accept that the pictures are in chronological order, you cannot make any inference that there is any ancestor/descendant relationship. You can infer a relationship based on homology, but you cannot state that is is due to any parent/child link. It might be parent/child, or it might be a distant cousin linkage, or it might be an experiment by aliens, or it might be some other form of ID. My point is you are assuming some evolutionary linkage, but you do not have enough data to do so.
I clearly stated that there is no data in the image about any ancestor/descendant relationship. My point is that I have made no statement or assumption about any ancestor/descendant relationship.
Besides and again, the Axe paper from the first post wasn't in an "ID" vanity journal.
And it does not relate in any way to the process by which proteins actually evolve or how biology actually works.
If it had succeeded in showing that proteins cannot evolve that still would not have been support for ID.
I do think it's interesting that the few ID articles that I've read are short on convincing evidence and seem to be "preaching to the choir" rather than competing with mainstream science publishing. They don't seem to be able to cut the mustard when it come to critical scientific review. It always comes down to "you have to believe in magic."
WookieeB writes:
Funny. That's the first time I've heard of Richard Dawkins being described as a "creationist". You must know that it is basically the description from his book.
Funny, because that's not what I said. That looks like a paraphrased quotemine to me. Kind of an unquoted quotemine.
I haven't read Dawkins' books, but I suspect that he didn't say exactly, "the idea that all organisms have descended from common ancestors solely through an unguided, unintelligent, purposeless, material processes such as natural selection acting on random variations or mutations; that the mechanisms of natural selection, random variation and mutation, and perhaps other similarly naturalistic mechanisms, are completely sufficient to account for the appearance of design in living organisms."
If he did, it does not make any difference to me, because it is not the wording I use to define evolution. I find "solely through an unguided, unintelligent, purposeless, material processes.....and perhaps other similarly naturalistic
mechanisms"
are not necessary wording in any scientific theory.
I prefer RAZD's definition of evolution Message 332 in Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
quote:
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in an iterative feedback response to the different ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 2:28 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 7:18 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 114 of 1104 (847446)
01-22-2019 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 2:07 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
WookieeB writes:
puts another nail in the coffin for the 'Junk DNA' view that is common to Darwinian evolution.
That's pretty funny, since junk DNA wasn't discovered until more than 100 years after Darwin published Origin of Species.
There are no discoveries about DNA that are excluded from the modern Theory of Evolution. That is the point of a scientific theory, it includes ALL the discovered evidence in that field.
You trying to paint the Theory of Evolution as out of touch the current state of knowledge is just plain silly.
WookieeB writes:
Then I guess you do not understand at all what Axe's paper is about. His paper provided a challenge to how Darwinian evolution is supposed to act.
Too bad, but it doesn't provide a challenge for how proteins actually evolve and how biological evolution actually works. Darwinian evolution was about natural selection and had nothing to say about proteins or molecular biology.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 2:07 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 115 of 1104 (847447)
01-22-2019 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Taq
01-22-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Taq writes:
What ID doesn't predict is a nested hierarchy.
What???
Of course ID can account for a nested hierarchy. Makes me think you do not understand what ID is? Ever hear of common design?
And I note you are now off of the skulls picture and had to go somewhere else. This new picture goes a bit farther and indicates an ancestral link. So you're progressing on what you are inferring. But as I said before, design can account for a nested hierarchy just as easily. The lines might be drawn differently and be inferring a different process behind it. In that case a dependency graph would be a better visual.
Evolution can explain a nested hierarchy. But not everything in life fits into the same tree-like structure. How do you account for two (or more) similar traits in organisms that are not found in the ancestor - like echolocation in bats and dolphins? Usually ad-hoc explanations (like convergent evolution) are used to explain it away, but that makes it much worse for any appeal to a nested hierarchy the farther you have to go back for a presumed common ancestor.
Whereas common design can just as easily explain a nested hierarchy as well as the odd exception.
Another thing about your nested hierarchy is that you are cannot use it to prove evolution since you are assuming evolution is the method. To do so would be circular reasoning.
Your cars will not fit into the same nested hierarchy. Instead, different parts will be mixed and matched in different models with no discernible nested hierarchy.
I'm not sure how you can say this. Depending on the similarities you want to highlight, you can draw up a nested hierarchy just fine for Corvettes. And yes, there might be some parts that dont fit the pattern for a car, but we see the same thing happening with life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 01-22-2019 3:38 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by JonF, posted 01-22-2019 6:58 PM WookieeB has replied
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 01-23-2019 12:48 PM WookieeB has replied

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 116 of 1104 (847448)
01-22-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Taq
01-22-2019 3:03 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Taq writes:
Axe didn't demonstrate any of those claims.
1. Axe didn't model evolution because he used a derived sequence instead of an ancestral sequence. He tried to mutate one modern gene sequence into another modern gene sequence. That isn't how evolution works. He should have derived the ancestral sequence from consensus sequence, but he didn't.
What are you talking about? There was no "derived sequence" and there was no reference to any "ancestral sequence". Are you on the right paper?
And Axe wasn't trying to "model" evolution directly. He was merely trying to get an estimate on the rarity of amino acid sequences that produce functional protein folds.
Axe didn't determine if the protein had function. Axe only determined if it had beta-lactamase activity. Using Axe's criteria, none of the proteins in the human genome have function because they all lack beta-lactamase activity.
Again I do not think you understand what he did. Beta-lactamase activity IS function. So he was determining function, duh!
No, Axe's criteria does not have a direct link to the human genome, but neither was he (or anyone) claiming that. He was using a fairly simple enzyme form found in what (I think) is a prokaryotic cell, and through experiments trying to come up with an estimate for rarity. His numbers are a guideline, not a hard and fast rule that has to apply to every cell everywhere. But because it was a simpler model, there is no reason to think the numbers would get any better when it came to the human genome. A later experiment by Axe (with Gauger, and perhaps is the paper referring to an ancestral sequence) using a slightly different method also came to roughly the same rarity number (a few factors different, but nothing that changes the implications much).
The only semi-plausible objection that Hunt had (in the response paper) was that rarity might not necessarily correspond to isolation in the search space. But Axe responded to that to really indicate any difference probably doesn't matter much. It is basically a discussion on whether two islands in a sea have a stepping stone route between them. Sure it might be possible, but if you are talking about small islands in a huge ocean, the likelihood of isolation (whether they are close to each other or not) vs the rarity (how often you find an island in the big ocean) becomes rather a silly question.
Axe didn't measure specified complexity
Not directly, no. But it does relate pretty directly on the idea of specified complexity.
Edited by WookieeB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Taq, posted 01-22-2019 3:03 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 117 of 1104 (847449)
01-22-2019 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
01-22-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
But the rarity was the precise point I made. And when I read Axe’s response his attempt to deal with that is laughable. Written language is not the same as proteins.
Again, I don't think you are understanding the paper. The response to Axe written by Arthur Hunt was not really questioning the rarity either. So rarity is NOT the point. Isolation is! To make it as simple as possible for you to understand, what hunt is trying to say is that there is no necessary relation between isolation and rarity, whereas Axe is demonstrating that saying there is no relation is silly.
Of course the written language is not the same as proteins, and Axe wasn't saying so. If you read his response more clearly, Axe is using an analogy with words to describe how the level of function he was looking for (to get positives in his search) was low, which actually helps the case for evolutionary processes because he was not setting the bar high to exclude it. Nevertheless, the rarity number was still astronomically high despite a low threshold for evolution to overcome. Understand now?
Paulk writes:
The idea that irreducible complexity cannot evolve is another common error (and one that Dembski has made). Behe didn’t make that mistake in Darwin’s Black Box, but he came very close to it.
...
For a start, Behe said as much in Darwin’s Black Box. Are you saying that Behe was wrong in that ?
I'm confused. Behe did or didn't....do what? I know Behe didn't say an IC "cannot evolve" at all, but he did suggest that the best option would be co-option, but the more parts you add with that route the complexity goes up exponentially, and you soon are at a probability that is realistically prohibitive. Who pro-ID has supposedly said otherwise?
Note also that Behe tried adopting a very different definition of irreducible complexity, and later dropped the idea. Hardly a sign of confidence in his argument.
I'm not buying this, but please do explain.
Some introns having a function in one organism - that happens to have very few introns - is not much of a case against junk DNA, not least for the fact that it doesn’t touch the main arguments for it.
So introns, while they were once thought to be junk, genetic debris left over from millions of years of evolution, are now showing evidence of function. So that is one part of the Junk DNA paradigm that is done with. What other "main arguments" did you have in mind?
It doesn’t apply for many scenarios involving the evolution of enzymes either. It can only be safely applied when a completely random sequence is generated. Which is not typical of evolution at all.
This makes no sense. How can you say it doesn't apply? Do you have other research that disputes it? I think you are getting mixed up with a simulation vs an estimation of the rarity of sequences leading to functional folds. Axe wasn't simulating evolution. But his estimates do have implications on the search space for function that evolution would have to traverse to.... evolve!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 4:12 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 01-23-2019 12:31 AM WookieeB has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 118 of 1104 (847450)
01-22-2019 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 5:23 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
ID does not predict a nested hierarchy. But of course it can account for a nested hierarchy, since it can account for anything. Which means it can't predict anything, especially the result of any experiment.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 5:23 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 9:28 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 119 of 1104 (847451)
01-22-2019 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by WookieeB
01-22-2019 5:54 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Beta-lactimase activit is a particular function. He didn't test for any of the near-infinite number of other possible functions. So his result does not support the claim that there is no function; it only means that it lacks that particular function. Note that essentially all of the enzymes involved in life lack Beta-lactimase activity, yet they do have functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by WookieeB, posted 01-22-2019 5:54 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 120 of 1104 (847452)
01-22-2019 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Tanypteryx
01-22-2019 4:43 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
I clearly stated that there is no data in the image about any ancestor/descendant relationship. My point is that I have made no statement or assumption about any ancestor/descendant relationship.
Ok, I think we might be talking around each other. I understand what you are saying. I guess I am just questioning why you stated it with the words "ancestors and descendants relationships". Yes, there is nothing about the skulls that speak to the type of 'ancestors and descendants relationships' they might have. But basically I was indicating that you have no reason to say there is ANY 'ancestors and descendants' involved.
And it does not relate in any way to the process by which proteins actually evolve or how biology actually works.
Assuming you are correct, then what is the process by which proteins actually evolve that Axe's work has absolutely no bearing on whatsoever?
If it had succeeded in showing that proteins cannot evolve that still would not have been support for ID
Every historical process has a negative(the others are not a good candidate) and positive (ours is a good candidate) side to the argument. Axe's work definitely is stronger on the negative side (evolution is a bad candidate) of the ID argument, but I don't think it has nothing to say for the positive side(design is a better explanation).
I do think it's interesting that the few ID articles that I've read are short on convincing evidence and seem to be "preaching to the choir" rather than competing with mainstream science publishing. They don't seem to be able to cut the mustard when it come to critical scientific review. It always comes down to "you have to believe in magic."
Rather than more 'I say:you say' banter, can you provide an example?
Funny, because that's not what I said. That looks like a paraphrased quotemine to me. Kind of an unquoted quotemine.
I haven't read Dawkins' books, but I suspect that he didn't say exactly...
Nobody claimed it was a quote. It's just a short description of what the idea of evolution is in Dawkin's book, which is a pretty common meaning for evolution in discussions like these. If you haven't read it, then I guess you wouldn't know either way.
But your seeming objection to it is interesting. As I said, my list of definitions was not exhaustive. But I think it encompasses a majority of the usual meanings. But that you have another one to submit just shows that even evolution isn't a consistent idea when discussed.
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in an iterative feedback response to the different ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats.
As it is, it's a pretty broad definition. In general I would probably believe this to be true, but it depends on to what extent of change it is applied to. I think we might disagree on some of the details though.
No mention of mutations or natural selection here, unless that is what you would include in "an iterative feedback response". This needs to be fleshed out in more detail, as it doesn't provide any information as to what you meant earlier by mentioning "the process by which proteins actually evolve or how biology actually works". But within this description, do you allow for the process to be directed, purposeful, and/or via an intelligence? The definition is rather agnostic there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-22-2019 4:43 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-23-2019 7:07 PM WookieeB has replied

  
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