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Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1081 of 1104 (913100)
10-11-2023 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1075 by sensei
10-11-2023 7:16 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensai writes:
Learn to read and keep up.
Well I'm trying but I'm a getting lost in your perpetual contentless, one line replies that normally contain an insult. I've gone back seven pages and before I lost the will to live I found this which may be one of the things that surprised us.
sensai:
Every scientist who claims UCA is a fact, basically posts it as absolute truth, if you ask me. Do you agree on this or do you see it differently?
Dawkins does it, I think. Among many others.
Although you haven't yet been able to provide evidence of any scientist - including Dawkins - saying this, I'm sure someone probably said something resembling this sometime. In casual speech people tend to be less careful than in print or when carefully considering an answer to a technical question. But anyone claiming that the UCA is fact, or truth is factually wrong - and you can dismiss anything they say - s/he is not a scientist.
fyi Here's a link to the wiki on the UCA.
I did a word search. Number of words in the article containing
proof - nil
truth - nil
absolute - nil
evidence - 123
hypothesis or hypotheses - 11
Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia
I also asked Bing whether Dawkins has ever called the UCL a fact. This is its reply
Bing:
According to Wikipedia, Richard Dawkins has listed the “concestors” of the human lineage in order of increasing age, down to the last universal common ancestor (human– bacteria) in his book The Ancestor’s Tale1. He also stated that the evidence for this is that all organisms share the same genetic code and was not invented twice2. However, he also acknowledged that there are some variations in the genetic code among different organisms, such as some mycoplasmas that use a different codon for tryptophan2. He also admitted that the last universal common ancestor is a hypothesis, not a fact, and that there is no direct evidence for its existence2. Therefore, it seems that Dawkins has not claimed that the universal common ancestor is a fact, but rather a plausible inference based on the available data.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 7:16 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1084 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1082 of 1104 (913101)
10-11-2023 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1080 by AZPaul3
10-11-2023 8:43 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
You can believe what you want to.
I was just replying to dwise
dwise1:
Instead, it is theism that claims to have complete and perfect knowledge, whereas atheism is just saying "No, you don't have complete and perfect knowledge, especially about the supernatural."
And my comment was:
sensei:
There are people in science who are humble enough to recognize the limitations of our science. And there are people who are more haughty when posting scientific findings as absolute truth.
I understand your position. I'm merely pointing out that both sides more or less have their "absolute" truths. And maybe you disagree with "absolute" part. That's fine. We don't need to agree on every detail of how to describe it best, I suppose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 8:43 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by Theodoric, posted 10-11-2023 9:04 AM sensei has replied
 Message 1086 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 9:21 AM sensei has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9280
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1083 of 1104 (913102)
10-11-2023 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1082 by sensei
10-11-2023 8:58 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Damn did those goalposts move.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 8:58 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1084 of 1104 (913103)
10-11-2023 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1081 by Tangle
10-11-2023 8:53 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
I've used UCA as umbrella term for common ancestry for life on Earth, with UCA as most promising among other theories, like seperate ancestors. Sorry, that I was not clear about this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2023 8:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 9:32 AM sensei has replied
 Message 1091 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2023 10:54 AM sensei has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1085 of 1104 (913104)
10-11-2023 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1083 by Theodoric
10-11-2023 9:04 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Care to clarify?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by Theodoric, posted 10-11-2023 9:04 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1086 of 1104 (913105)
10-11-2023 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1082 by sensei
10-11-2023 8:58 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
and there are people who are more haughty when posting scientific findings as absolute truth.
And there is where you fucked up. Scientists don't do this, and you can't show where anyone does. It's a total fabrication. A fucking lie, sensei.
My efforts to tease you about your stupid absolute truth fell on a dull mind. No one of any scientific credit would ever refer to any absolute truth.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 8:58 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:27 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1087 of 1104 (913106)
10-11-2023 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1086 by AZPaul3
10-11-2023 9:21 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
You admitted yourself that you accept UCA as fact. That is your truth. You may not call it absolute. But you sure argue like it is, disregarging any other view as invalid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 9:21 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 10:11 AM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1088 of 1104 (913107)
10-11-2023 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1084 by sensei
10-11-2023 9:07 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
I've used UCA as umbrella term for common ancestry for life on Earth, with UCA as most promising among other theories, like seperate ancestors.
Except separate creation would not produce the clear nested hierarchy that life shows us. The lineages do not stop at separate terminuses. They cross species, families, even kingdoms.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:07 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1090 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 10:43 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 1089 of 1104 (913108)
10-11-2023 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1087 by sensei
10-11-2023 9:27 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
You admitted yourself that you accept UCA as fact.
Yes, I do see the LUCA hypothesis as a fact of evolution. I understand the formal definitions but there is nothing close to compete with the evidence and the logical inference of LUCA. For this world to show us what we see there would have to have been such a founding population. We just don't have enough absolute evidence to prove these absolute facts.
No it's not an "absolute truth". No such damn thing exists in this universe. Get off the absolute crap, sensei. That is one of those things making you look the fool.
As for arguing for LUCA as if it were fact, that is because it is. Or something very much like it, some common pool of simple primitive genetics, the progenitors of that which are in our genome today. The spread of the same genetic devices, the same codes being used for the same purposes all across all of lifekind is a strong telltale of common descent. There is too much similarity across lineages for there not to have been a common heritage.
You offer no alternative explanations that produce the same result without resort to majik. When you evoke majik you lose.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:27 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1090 of 1104 (913109)
10-11-2023 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1088 by AZPaul3
10-11-2023 9:32 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
AZPaul3:
Except separate creation would not produce the clear nested hierarchy that life shows us.
Well that's a whole different point.
For you to make claims about what seperate creation would produce, you gonna need to clarify your assumptions for seperate creation.
quote:
No it's not an "absolute truth". No such damn thing exists in this universe.
I don't agree here at all. There is reality. How you perceive this reality and how certain you are about things of this reality, does not change the fact that it is there, the way it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 9:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 11:09 AM sensei has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1091 of 1104 (913110)
10-11-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1084 by sensei
10-11-2023 9:07 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensai writes:
I've used UCA as umbrella term for common ancestry for life on Earth, with UCA as most promising among other theories, like seperate ancestors. Sorry, that I was not clear about this.
UCA is a special case of CA. An evolutionary biologist will almost certainly tell you that while the UCA is a decent hypothesis we are far from certain that it's correct at the very base of the tree. One reason is the possibility of gene transfer in unicellular organisms.
But the same biologists would tell you that CA is as certain as anything in biological sciences can be. I'm sure some would tell you that it is a fact, after all, you can create a family tree of your own family showing common descent. There is no alternate theory and enormous, unqualified support for it. This is how knowledge grows, we're sure of some things (speaking in general terms) and less sure of others depending on the evidence we have available to us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 9:07 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1092 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 11:00 AM Tangle has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1092 of 1104 (913111)
10-11-2023 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1091 by Tangle
10-11-2023 10:54 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Yeah, that's the view from evolutionist perspective. I agree with that (not with the perspective itself, just to be clear).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1091 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2023 10:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1093 of 1104 (913112)
10-11-2023 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1090 by sensei
10-11-2023 10:43 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
I don't agree here at all.
So what? The rest of the scientific consensus on this planet says you are wrong.
Reality can be perceived, measured, but not to any arbitrary degree. QFT establishes limits on our knowledge and on our accuracy in measurement and perception. As a consequence, there is no certainty. No absolute truth.
We going to go round with your numbers analogy again?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 10:43 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 12:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1094 of 1104 (913114)
10-11-2023 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1093 by AZPaul3
10-11-2023 11:09 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Well, science assumes that reality is real at least. Just that our perception of it is limited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 11:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1095 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 12:42 PM sensei has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1095 of 1104 (913116)
10-11-2023 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1094 by sensei
10-11-2023 12:10 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Just that our perception of it is limited.
Again, look at heisenberg and the uncertainty principle. The limits to our perceptions of the cosmos are not due to our lesser brain or technology. They are due to the structure of the universe. It appears that at the most basic level of interaction the universe does not have a discernible reality but a spread of probabilities of certain random outcomes. The very structure of the cosmos limits the knowledge available.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1094 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 12:10 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 1:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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