Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 466 of 1104 (907351)
02-21-2023 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Taq
02-21-2023 6:09 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
Why don't you explain how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations?
Taq:
Let's start with your great-grandfather.

Are you going to tell us what adaptive mutations my great-grandfather had and which further adaptive mutations my grandparents had, and the additional adaptive mutations my parents had? And then I inherited them all? All those 50 to 100 additional mutations that each had were all adaptive? And what exactly am I adapting to? This is the kind of grade school explanation I would expect out of laymen on this forum, not out of a virologist. Can you give a real example of where the adaptive mutations are measured and identified in a population?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 6:09 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 6:35 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 467 of 1104 (907353)
02-21-2023 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Kleinman
02-21-2023 6:33 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Are you going to tell us what adaptive mutations my great-grandfather had and which further adaptive mutations my grandparents had, and the additional adaptive mutations my parents had?
Do you or do you not understand how mutations accumulate?
Cephalanalectomy, stat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 6:33 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 7:06 PM Taq has replied
 Message 469 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2023 7:12 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 468 of 1104 (907358)
02-21-2023 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Taq
02-21-2023 6:35 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
Are you going to tell us what adaptive mutations my great-grandfather had and which further adaptive mutations my grandparents had, and the additional adaptive mutations my parents had?
Taq:
Do you or do you not understand how mutations accumulate?
​
Cephalanalectomy, stat.

I'm not the one having trouble explaining how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations. You are even having difficulty differentiating any mutation from an adaptive mutation. You are conflating two concepts, adaptive evolution, and neutral evolution. Do your nested hierarchies explain the difference? And why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimpanzees if all their mutations are neutral?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 6:35 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 7:18 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 02-23-2023 12:50 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 469 of 1104 (907359)
02-21-2023 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Taq
02-21-2023 6:35 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
His response at 468 has earned you a St. Jude medal.
St Jude Medal

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 6:35 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 470 of 1104 (907360)
02-21-2023 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Kleinman
02-21-2023 7:06 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
I'm not the one having trouble explaining how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations.
Neither am I.
You are even having difficulty differentiating any mutation from an adaptive mutation.
All mutations are passed on in the same way. The same mechanism that passes on neutral and detrimental mutations also passes on beneficial mutations. It's called vertical inheritance.
Do your nested hierarchies explain the difference?
A nested hierarchy isn't an explanation. It is an observation.
Want to try again?
And why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimpanzees if all their mutations are neutral?
I never said that all of their mutations were neutral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 7:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Kleinman, posted 02-22-2023 10:45 AM Taq has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 471 of 1104 (907371)
02-22-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Taq
02-21-2023 7:18 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
I'm not the one having trouble explaining how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations.
Taq:
Neither am I.

Then do the math, and verify it with experimental evidence, not some story about nested hierarchies that don't fit either the math or experimental evidence.
Kleinman:
You are even having difficulty differentiating any mutation from an adaptive mutation.
Taq:
All mutations are passed on in the same way. The same mechanism that passes on neutral and detrimental mutations also passes on beneficial mutations. It's called vertical inheritance.

That's right, but not all mutations are adaptive mutations. Adaptive mutations are particular mutations and because of this, the joint probability of getting more than one adaptive mutation is computed by multiplication. And you know that mutations are adaptive because they improve the reproductive fitness of those variants. You still haven't done the math to explain the reproductive fitness advantage that humans have over chimps. How many of those 35,000,000 mutations you claim the human genome differs from the chimpanzee genome are adaptive?
Kleinman:
Do your nested hierarchies explain the difference?
Taq:
A nested hierarchy isn't an explanation. It is an observation.
​
Want to try again?

You are the one claiming that humans and chimpanzees are related based on these observations. These observations don't explain anything about phylogenetics.
Kleinman:
And why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimpanzees if all their mutations are neutral?
Taq:
I never said that all of their mutations were neutral.

That's brilliant considering there are 8 billion humans and only 300,000 chimpanzees. Tell us, how many of those 35,000,000 genetic differences are adaptive mutations? You don't have to tell us which mutations they are. This shouldn't be difficult for you since you have no trouble explaining how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 7:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Taq, posted 02-22-2023 12:16 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 472 of 1104 (907376)
02-22-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Kleinman
02-22-2023 10:45 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Then do the math, and verify it with experimental evidence, not some story about nested hierarchies that don't fit either the math or experimental evidence.
I already did the math. It's over in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20319
As predicted, you are trying to pull the thread off topic so you can hop on your hobby horse.
Adaptive mutations are particular mutations and because of this, the joint probability of getting more than one adaptive mutation is computed by multiplication.
Already covered in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20319
You are the one claiming that humans and chimpanzees are related based on these observations.
And I have stated many times now what the explanation for that observation is. Here it is again:
"The explanation for the observation of a nested hierarchy is a combination of common ancestry, vertical inheritance, mutation, and natural selection. You get shared features from common ancestry, and you get lineage specific adaptations from mutations that stay within a lineage due to the lack of horizontal genetic transfer (i.e. vertical inheritance)."
Tell us, how many of those 35,000,000 genetic differences are adaptive mutations?
Do you think that none of them are adaptive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Kleinman, posted 02-22-2023 10:45 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 473 of 1104 (907386)
02-23-2023 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Kleinman
02-21-2023 7:06 PM


Laws & Theories
This might help clear a few things up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 7:06 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 473
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 474 of 1104 (907417)
02-23-2023 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Taq
02-21-2023 12:56 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Your problem is, you only look for data that confirms your biased view and discard opposing view based on bad assumptions.
Parsimony does not determine what is truth and what is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Taq, posted 02-21-2023 12:56 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2023 2:15 PM sensei has replied
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 02-24-2023 7:49 AM sensei has not replied
 Message 479 by Taq, posted 02-24-2023 10:59 AM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 475 of 1104 (907419)
02-23-2023 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by sensei
02-23-2023 1:57 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
What data should we be looking at? What data says "related" in biology that is not within a nested hierarchy? How do you get ancestors and descendants without creating a nested hierarchy? Inplace of nested hierarchy what pattern do you see in the data?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by sensei, posted 02-23-2023 1:57 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 4:07 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 473
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 476 of 1104 (907437)
02-24-2023 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by AZPaul3
02-23-2023 2:15 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Your questions don't make much sense. According to common ancestry, all organisms are related.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2023 2:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by AZPaul3, posted 02-24-2023 7:18 AM sensei has replied
 Message 480 by Taq, posted 02-24-2023 11:02 AM sensei has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 477 of 1104 (907443)
02-24-2023 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by sensei
02-24-2023 4:07 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
According to you they are not. So, again, what data says "related" in biology that is not within a nested hierarchy?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 4:07 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 11:26 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 478 of 1104 (907447)
02-24-2023 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by sensei
02-23-2023 1:57 PM


Two Different World Views?
I guess my question is this:
Why is there an "opposing" view? Are we talking scientists/biologists who simply disagree or are we talking two entirely different "groups" with two entirely different methodologies, two different sets of definitions for common terms used in the field of study, and two different world views?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by sensei, posted 02-23-2023 1:57 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 479 of 1104 (907475)
02-24-2023 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by sensei
02-23-2023 1:57 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Your problem is, you only look for data that confirms your biased view and discard opposing view based on bad assumptions.
Then please tell me what pattern common ancestry, vertical inheritance, and evolution should produce if it isn't a nested hierarchy.
Parsimony does not determine what is truth and what is not.
"For it is manifest that it is always possible to give a hypothetical explanation of any phenomenon whatever, by referring it immediately to the intelligence of some supernatural agent; so that the only difference between the logic of science and the logic of superstition consists in science recognising a validity in the law of parsimony which superstition disregards. "--George Romanes, "Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
I am using the logic of science when I use parsimony. You are using the logic of superstition when you ignore parsimony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by sensei, posted 02-23-2023 1:57 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 480 of 1104 (907476)
02-24-2023 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by sensei
02-24-2023 4:07 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
According to common ancestry, all organisms are related.
We aren't assuming a nested hierarchy. We observe a nested hierarchy. This observation is the same for everyone regardless of their position.
Do you agree with this or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 4:07 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 11:29 AM Taq has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024