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Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
sensei
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Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


(1)
Message 391 of 1104 (906945)
02-16-2023 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Taq
02-16-2023 9:28 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Also, air bags are not really part of car mechanics. They could be considered to be add-on accesories.
Like a man wearing a hat. If goats wore the same hat, would that break the nested hierarchy of life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:28 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:52 PM sensei has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


(1)
Message 392 of 1104 (906946)
02-16-2023 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 9:22 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Sure, I don't understand this and that. Are those your best arguments? Any proof to support your claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 9:22 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 393 of 1104 (906947)
02-16-2023 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:45 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
If a man would share his genes with all women alive, would that break the nested hierachy?
The man would need to share his genes with a distantly related species in order to break the nested hierarchy. Again, the nested hierarchy exists BETWEEN species, not within species.
If a human managed to reproduce with a monkey, would that break the nested hierarchy?
First, humans are monkeys just as we are mammals and vertebrates.
However, if a human did have offspring with a baboon, then yes, that would produce violations of the nested hierarchy. Crossbreeding with closely related species does produce small violations among closely related species, but that is expected. What we don't see is numerous and major violations across very different species. There is no reason why we wouldn't see these types of violations if species or created kinds were separately created. Even humans are able to move genes around between very different species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:45 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 394 of 1104 (906948)
02-16-2023 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:48 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Also, air bags are not really part of car mechanics.
They are a functional feature of the car. It's the same as functional features in organisms.
Like a man wearing a hat. If goats wore the same hat, would that break the nested hierarchy of life?
A hat is not part of the goat. An air bag is part of the car.
A diesel engine is part of a vehicle. If cars formed a nested hierarchy then there would only be one branch of vehicles that have diesel engines which would be the descendants of the first vehicle with a diesel engine. That's not what we see. Diesel engines are distributed across many different branches of vehicles, all willy-nilly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:48 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:54 PM Taq has replied
 Message 401 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:00 PM Taq has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 395 of 1104 (906949)
02-16-2023 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Taq
02-16-2023 9:50 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
So now you allow for violations, while still calling it a nested hierarchy. At what point exactly do you stop calling it nested hierarchy? What is the maximum amount of violation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:54 PM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 396 of 1104 (906950)
02-16-2023 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Taq
02-16-2023 9:52 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
A hat can just be as functional, protecting against sun and heat or against rain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:55 PM sensei has replied
 Message 400 by AZPaul3, posted 02-16-2023 10:00 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 397 of 1104 (906951)
02-16-2023 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:53 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
So now you allow for violations, while still calling it a nested hierarchy. At what point exactly do you stop calling it nested hierarchy?
When there are violations that can't be explained by cross breeding between closely related species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:53 PM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 398 of 1104 (906952)
02-16-2023 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:45 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
If a man would share his genes with all women alive, would that break the nested hierachy?
Why should it?
Every child is the same species as the parents. If all came from one parent, it can be considered one big family.
Yup, that's us. One big ole family of human beings.
If a human managed to reproduce with a monkey, would that break the nested hierarchy?
Should it? You still don't understand the concept. Nested hierarchies don't work that way. All you can do is start new ones.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:45 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 399 of 1104 (906953)
02-16-2023 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:54 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
A hat can just be as functional, protecting against sun and heat or against rain.
A hat is also designed. Once again pointing out how design produces violations of a nested hierarchy with ease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:54 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:02 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 400 of 1104 (906955)
02-16-2023 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:54 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
A hat can just be as functional, protecting against sun and heat or against rain.
Now he's into zen. This is good. Improvement may be imminent. He may yet find us his god.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:54 PM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 401 of 1104 (906956)
02-16-2023 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Taq
02-16-2023 9:52 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
If they can share same engine, they are closely related. Group then togheter and you have your nested hierarchy restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 10:05 PM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 402 of 1104 (906957)
02-16-2023 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Taq
02-16-2023 9:55 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
And suddenly, you stop allowing any violation? A few minutes ago, you considered the event of interbreeding a violation, but still a nested hierarchy. Two measures?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 9:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 10:08 PM sensei has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 403 of 1104 (906958)
02-16-2023 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by sensei
02-16-2023 10:00 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
If they can share same engine, they are closely related. Group then togheter and you have your nested hierarchy restored.
You have to separate them onto different branches. At the end, all of your species have to be on separate branches. Whenever you connect those branches you have to have a synapomorphy which are all of the features that are shared by all of the connected branches and not found anywhere else on the tree except on the branches that connect to that node. Each node can only have two branches.
So let's see the tree with the synapomorphies at each node.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:00 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 404 of 1104 (906959)
02-16-2023 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by sensei
02-16-2023 10:02 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
A few minutes ago, you considered the event of interbreeding a violation, but still a nested hierarchy.
Yes, interbreeding between distantly related species, not closely related species. We see interbreeding between closely related species, so that has to be incorporated. We do not see interbreeding between distantly related species. We should only expect small violations of closely related branches, and that is exactly what we see. With design, there is no reason why we shouldn't see numerous and major violations between divergent species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:02 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:32 PM Taq has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 405 of 1104 (906966)
02-16-2023 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Taq
02-16-2023 10:08 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
If nested hierarchy is violated, small or big, it is no longer a strictly nested hierarchy.
So we find that even evolution has not produced a real nested hierarchy, if common ancestry were true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 10:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 10:41 PM sensei has replied
 Message 407 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 10:42 PM sensei has replied

  
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