|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total) |
| AZPaul3 (1 member, 139 visitors)
|
harveyspecter | |
Total: 895,312 Year: 6,424/6,534 Month: 617/650 Week: 155/232 Day: 1/39 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In this topic, I wish to discuss the hypothetical and actual ideas brought forth through believers and non-believers with an open mind alike as to the character of the Christian God of literature and oral tradition throughout History. In particular, I wish to discuss the ideas around free will, foreknowledge, human attempts to understand the plan, meaning of stories and legends and also what the apologists and popular preachers and teachers have added throughout the years. Believers, feel free to contribute anything you get from commentaries on the Bible, Calvinism, Philosophy, even your own freethought opinions. Yes, Tangle...in this topic we are freely making it all up...that's the guidelines....what sense can we make out of the idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen who chose to relate to humanity through a divine human character which we are charged to emulate? Lets start with a few quotes:
quote:In other words, for the guidelines in this discussion, God transcends time...but His Son allegedly was and is human...thus God also represents humanity at our level and within our times. Next, for the sake of this particular argument, let's assume that we all are essentially making up God. This allows for participants such as Tangle to skip the task of proving that to us and to join the conversation as if we are arriving at a consensus on what God would be like in regards to humans. Participants can feel free to either use the Bible to state their case that God exists apart from human imagination and has a plan or vision of some sort concerning the fate of humanity. Or they can ascribe to Open Theism or they can simply go along for the ride, pointing out flaws in Theological Assertions and Arguments and why they disagree with God as defined in the conversation.
If Jesus exists today,(or is defined as living and existing by participants) we can further argue that we are attempting to define Him and our responsibility and role with Him as believers by defining the character of God--as imagined/believed today. Unbelievers can also argue why they avoid Him. Faith & Belief, please. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : clarification Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 12815 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
Could I suggest a title change to "A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism".
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Sure. Sounds good... I think my editing is finished on the topic starter.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 12815 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
Thread copied here from the A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
What possible result are you hoping for? If you're looking for what happens when we make beliefs up I offer you every religion in the world plus the Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Force, Eywa and Galdalf the White amonst many, may others. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This is a common argument employed by skeptics. They use catch phrases such as "you believe in the nonexistence of every God but One...we just go One God further." Lets nail down the basic idea: Jesus, as a character in literature, is either described as God Incarnate or as fully God and fully man. Others have described him as human while on earth and as more of a messenger or Messiah..(some claim failed Messiah.) In this topic, I want to get to the hypothetical idea that a Creator of all seen and unseen exists, that such a Creator is capable of communing with and relating to humans, and that this is done in some way, shape, or form through specific human(s) to other humans. You can drag us ridiculously off topic with hypothetical spaghetti monsters, historical ghosts and apparitions, or characters invented through literature if you must. I warn you, however, that this will be dragging us through ridiculous off-topic nonsense. Allow me to break the hypothetical down to your level and real-life experience. Note ringos quote: You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo When you go fishing and meditate, you also get answers and perhaps many more questions through your own imagination and consciousness. Why is it so bothersome for you to simply imagine a Creator of all seen and unseen with an ability to impress upon human philosophies and thoughts? You always go back to primitive superstitions and about how much science has learned about how and why we think and believe the way that we do. Don't be afraid. Make God up, and then answer the question of how such a hypothetical timeless concept would relate to humanity within time.
As I said in the opening post, quote:Perhaps I should clarify and add that you don't have to make up a God per se...perhaps you could utilize concepts such as fate, destiny, and the philosophical meaning of what hypothetically happens when a human fights for relevance, purpose, and legacy...either through their own personal accomplishments or vicariously through their offspring and fate intervenes...one way or another. Or perhaps you could also criticize the concept of fate itself. Either way, the thrust of this topic is in discussing our usual presupposition of free will vs omnipotence in the light of the added philosophical (theological?) concept of Open Theism. The reason that I added the corollary that God is essentially made up is to skip the usual arguments with you and others attempting to prove this. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Replying to you as Percy, rather than Admin.....
Add by edit:
Remember the Prime Directive in Star Trek?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
But this is simply your position that you and others here have argued for years. I don't accept this belief and I don't see how pretending that I do helps anything.
Why do you assume all this mysticism? When I go fishing I spend most of my time trying to work out how to catch fish and the rest admiring the scenery and thinking how lucky I am to be doing it.
Ringo spends roughly one post per week explaining to you that he once believed the stuff you believe and you routinely let that statement pass right over you as though it's not an important point. What you're essentially asking us to do is go back to our childhood and imagine Father Christmas is real and discuss him as though he was. To us that is just bloody silly. We've grown up.
That's because it's true! Why would I go back to fiction?
Why? That's your position not mine. The way it works here is that you do all that and we tell you why it's nonsence.
None of this makes any sense to me. It's all mystical bunkum that I once believed but rejected decades ago. I think you might make more progress in understanding those ideas if YOU could begin to imagine not having them. Unlike me trying to imagine your world which I don't have to do because I've been there and done that, why don't you try to imagine mine? I know it's something you guys find impossible but maybe it's worth a try. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Nothing we say ever touches the sides does it? You can't escape your bubble and just accept what we tell you. I DON'T BELIEVE IN LUCK AND CHANCE.
Of course you can; I'm a rationalist, you can easily change my mind about anything, all you have to do is produce the evidence. There's a science of chance and probability it's called statistics. It relies of the FACT that there is such a thingas chance so it'll be an up hill struggle for you but if you have the facts you can do it.
There you go again, talking bollox. Show this thing that you call foreknowledge and I'll change my mind. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Well, can we just move on with the topic? I don't feel like tangling with you right now...I want to discuss the concept of Open Theism.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
https://www.gotquestions.org/open-theism.html
https://www.premierchristianradio.com/...ite-vs-John-Sanders
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Wiz.....straight over your head again with hardly an upward glance. But regardless, what's different about this than all the other freewill vs foreknowledge threads there's been here? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member Posts: 19784 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
I've never understood why believers conflate the builder with the landlord. And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 20988 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
My faith in God comes from within and not from any evidence. Since there *is* no evidence, I know nothing about him. My internal unevidenced feeling is that He gives purpose to the universe and is not a personal God. He may not even know or care about us on this tiny planet orbiting an average sun in a sparse portion of an arm of an unremarkable galaxy. I do believe in free will. I think Open Theism is just a renaming of an existing concept. --Percy
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022