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Author | Topic: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: I want to know how you propose to bring about the DIFFERENCES between them as supposedly the chimp evolves to the human. ... How do you turn chimp skin and fur and nails into human skin and nails? Well of course you don’t turn chimp anything into human anything. Both humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor. That’s very basic stuff Faith. But I do have some sympathy for your disbelief, it’s quite hard to accept as it’s outside of common, everyday experience. That’s why it took a long time to be accepted by science.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: Anything to confuse the issue, right, Tangle? Any stupid misrepresentation will do. The problem Faith, is that you continue to make these mistakes which show that you don't yet understand what you're talking about. Humans did not evolve from chimps so asking how hands can change from one to the other is a category error. You have to start from a single ancestor from which small changes over time led eventually to the differences we see today.
Pick whatever ape ancestor you **** to human beings, pick whatever humanoid you **** as the next in ****, THEN answer the question how you can get from the one to the other. What incremental changes are necessary? Etc. Etc. The answer is by mutation. I sympathise also with your inability to type words like 'like'. It's a cruel and unusual punishment. But quite funny.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: The necessary changes are what I was asking for but you haven't even tried to spell them out. This is the sort of stuff you could look for yourself, but we all know you actually don't want to know, you just want to dispute stuff that you're not capable of understanding. The chimp genome was only sequenced a short time ago, so it's asking rather a lot but the information is there if you really want it. Here's a starter from Nature. I wish you luck.
quote: DNA sequence and comparative analysis of chimpanzee chromosome 22 | Nature Oh, and by the way, it's another practical use of the concept of the UCA.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: I'm still waiting for someone to show how the changes occur that need to occur to get a human being from whatever ancestral ape you choose. Right, you think we can look back five or six million years and show you each genetic change that occurred? Do you think that a reasonable request? Would you accept it even if it was possible? (Rhetorical, we already know that you can't.)
There must be many, hundreds, thousands, of variations that are ****** to pop up before you get even one change toward the outcome you have in mind. Spell it out. Well it was there in the abstract...
quote: Are you hoping that someone is going to take you through each of them? As another little btw, before the genomes were sequenced the ToE allowed us to predict that the genome of Pan troglodytes would be very, very similar to Human sapiens. And it was. It didn't have to be that way, had a creator been involved it could easily have turned out to be made of entirely different base pairs - or liquorice and chocolate. Funny how the evidence mounts up isn't it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: I know you can't show anything I've asked you to show because it's impossible. Correct. It's impossible because we don't have the genomes of 5 million year old human/chimp ancestors and never will. What we have are the fossils plus the modern day genomes showing the differences.
You think it's possible so the burden is on you to show it, I think it's impossible - see above
show SOMETHING, ANYTHING genetic that would show that you can get a completely new species from an existing species. You've been shown that. You just deny it.
Since there is order in the created world Yes, the order is the nested hierarchy depicted in both modern organisms and the fossil record. It all looks exactly like it would had stuff evolved and exactly like it shouldn't if it had been created.
of course you could predict a human genome from a human creature. Nope, we predicted the genetic closeness of Pan to Homo. Something your 'orthodoxy' would have denied under pain of death a few hundred years ago. We are all apes.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs. Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes. So there's no reason to think more mutations would change that fact. Forgive me, I've forgotten how you rationalise all the other human species. Same genera. Was god just practicing? Homo - close relatives of modern humansHomo gautengensis” Homo rudolfensis” Homo naledi” Homo habilis” Homo georgicus” (thought by some to be an early subspecies of Homo erectus) Homo floresiensis” Homo erectus” Homo ergaster” (considered by some to be an early subspecies of Homo erectus) Homo antecessor” Homo heidelbergensis” (sometimes called Archaic Homo sapiens) Homo cepranensis” Homo helmei” Homo palaeojavanicus” Homo tsaichangensis” Denisovans (scientific name not yet assigned)” Homo neanderthalensis” (sometimes called Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) Homo rhodesiensis” Homo sapiens Homo sapiens idaltu” Archaic Homo sapiens” Red Deer Cave people ” (scientific name has not yet been assigned; perhaps a race of modern humans or a hybrid[27] of modern humans and Denisovans. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: They're either humans God made as humans or they are something else God made to be something else. Important to make your mind up I think. Seems a bit of a waste to me. But not much time to have the lot of them all running around together. Only one made it to the ark too. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: Yes I realized that after I wrote what you quoted and changed the post. Not that you're making this up as you go along... If chimps have somewhere around 95-98% human DNA, how much do you think, say, Homo habilis had?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
FAITH writes: If Homo habilis was a human being then it had 100% If it was an ape I have no idea Well we know he was an ape because we are too, but we also know that unlike, say, a chimp, he was also Homo. So he was human, though not of the same species as us. My guess is that his DNA is going to be pretty close but not exact. Because obviously if it was exact, he'd be H. sapiens, not H. habilis. So god made lots of prototypes, then killed them off? Any idea why? I don't recollect anything in the bible about these other human species. Or in any other texts at all anywhere or anywhen. How come? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Dredge writes: The gaps are where aliens performed genetic engineering to produce a novel organism(s). Just to clarify a few things that you believe. The earth is very old - let's say 3.4bn years?Your Christian god created it? Your Christian god created simple life forms which then evolved through natural processes into more complex lifeforms? Until they got to the Cambrian, then aliens got to work with their genetic engineering? Then normal evolution occurs again for the next 600million years or so? (Do the aliens return after the various mass extinction events- maybe after dinosaurs go extinct for instance?) Then we get to our ape descendants where your Christian god comes back and create Homo sapiens? Is that about it? Did you Christian god make the aliens? Do you worship the aliens?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: He isn't a YEC, he believes in an old earth. Yes it matters. I agree, it helps identify the degree of crazy. True YEC is up there with the flat earthers. On the scale of moronic, YEC is the full 10. This guy is also a 10, though for different reasons. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: I don't know how he puts it all together, he just seems to believe in an old earth and to some extent in evolution too. If I'm wrong I hope he'll come by and explain his views better. Well you could ask him to answer this - it's what I've attempted to pull out of his muddle; so far he doesn't seem to want to.
quote: Obviously he doesn't actually believe the alien stuff, he just thinks he's being clever substituting his god for aliens. Not understanding, of course, that he's introduced two unidentified and unidentifiable agents which makes whatever argument he thought he had doubly fatuous.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Dredge writes: For example, if you can think of any practical use of medical science that requires the “information” that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, that would be a start. AIDS vaccine development using monkeys - our closest genetic relative. Now what?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Dredge writes: Sorry, but your argument fails. What is actually useful in this case is the FACT that human and monkey DNA are similar. Any EXPLANATION for why they are similar (ie, common descent) is irrelevant. In other words, the useful fact is not dependent on the explanation, which is actually useless. You are conflating a useful fact and a useless theory that attempts to explain that fact. Well, that's just more denial, twisting and wriggling, but I was answering the question you asked which was
Dredge writes: For example, if you can think of any practical use of medical science that requires the “information” that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, that would be a start. And the answer was inoculation testing using monkeys which is possible because we share a close common ancestor.
Are you saying a creationist Muslim biologist, for example, couldn’t make use of these genetic similarities and use primates to test drugs on? No. But without the knowledge we have of common descent he'd have to try every living organism to find something that worked.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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