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Author | Topic: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
That's very useful information ... it's right up there with, the Tooth Fairy and Leprechauns share a common ancector.
Yep, right up there with "the UCA has no application in applied biology". Earth-shattering stuff.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
What is meant by "ToE" seems to be a subjective thing and varies from person to person.
And? Is it a surprise to you that a robust theory relevant to a large number of science fields might mean different things to different people? Do you think it is uncommon for a given word or idea to have more than one meaning? Do you think that gravity means the same thing for a hydraulic engineer as it does to a theoretical physicist? As usual, it appears that you attempt to sow doubt where there really is none. Or is this just a semantic game that allows you a false feeling of superiority, when really it's just another straw-man argument?
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Would you like to start again from the beginning?
It's pretty clear that the anti-science crowd mistakes their opinions for facts, and that contrary opinions can be dismissed for no other reason. If I find the theory of evolution useful in explaining the data that I see in the geological record, that means exactly nothing to Dredge. Therefor, he can invoke denial as an argument when really, it's just another blinded opinion from someone who cannot fathom the fact that someone might have an alternative opinion. It becomes an article of faith, a way to shut down dialog. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Dawkins is an anti-evolutionist?
AFAICS, you are the only one quoting Dawkins around here. Why do you find him to be such an authority?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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I've already explained why - the Cambrian explosion looks nothing like a single "tree of life"; rather, it looks like an orchard of unrelated trees that appeared out of nowhere.
Except that they didn't 'appear out of nowhere'. They had precursors. We have been over this a few times now ...
Oh dear, that's not supposed to happen ...
Heh, heh .... Thank you for the humor break. I just love it when a YEC tells me what evolution is supposed to do or not do.
There's nothing in my religion about the fossil record.
Of course not and I didn't say that there was.
However, the fossil record does offer strong evidence of creation, which is in my religion.
And your evidence is that it 'looks like an orchard'? Wow! Powerful stuff!
According to your belief system, evolution is a fact, therefore an inconvenient truth like the Cambrian explosiion is simply swept under the carpet and rationalized away.
The only sweeping away done around here is your dismissal of all the evidence that there was no 'explosion' in the sense of an instantaneous expansion.
Ten million years is an "explosion" in modern ordnance? (whatever "ordnance" means.)
Ah, another gap in your knowledge. Think of 'artillery'. And no, the point is that tens of millions of years is not an explosive event. Well, except to a YEC, I suppose.
Stephen J. Gould, Harvard, "The Cambrian Explosion occurred in A GEOLOGICAL MOMENT, and we have reason to think that all major anatomical designs may have made their evolutionary appearance at that time ... ALL MAJOR DISCOVERIES OF THE PAST CENTURY HAVE ONLY HEIGTHENED THE MASSIVENESS AN GEOLOGICAL ABRUPTNESS OF THIS FORMATIVE EVENT ..." Nature, Vol.377, 26 10/95, p.682.
Did you miss the part where he said "geological moment" and "geological abruptness"? Do you understand the ramifications of that phrase? Particularly when is arguing for PE?
Probably, but that's irrelevant to my point. What's relevant is what existed in the Ediacaran and what suddenly appeared without any evolutionary history in the Cambrian.
Why is it irrelevant? Because you don't want it to be? The record shows that there was metazoan life prior to the Cambrian and there was probably a lot more considering the sparsity of fossils from that period. And there were millions of years to evolve the basic Phyla that were preserved in the Cambrian System.
Mammals appeared later - so what?
So, explain it. You are the one who implied that all major 'phyla' (your understanding) appeared in the Cambrian and I'm saying 'So what?"
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I find the theory of creation useful in explaining the data I see in the geological record, but that means exactly nothing to edge.
My post was not addressed to you. And if you can't accurately quote me, I guess I'm not surprised since you manage to misrepresent most of the scientists that you quote also.
Not just to Dredge ... it means exactly nothing to applied science as well.
Your opinion is noted.
Someone might find the theory of alien experiments on various organisms useful in explaining the data they see in the geological record, but that means exactly nothing to nearly everyone.
And your next revelation will be that water is wet.
What am I denying? I've forgotten.
The fact that some scientists find evolutionary concepts useful in both theoretical and applied science. And if you have 'forgotten', that just makes it easier to deny, yes?
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I used to believe I was once a hydraulics engineer and that I was once a theoreticial physicist, but then one day I realized that I was neither.
Ahhh, so then you claim to be making progress. Can we assume that you will be taking some remedial science courses soon?
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Please be advised that his quote deals with the time-frame of the Cambrian "Period", not the Cambrian "explosion".
Does this mean that you are going to give us a precise date for your explosion?
None of these facts are inconsistent with my creation model. Creation unfolded progressively over billions of years - it could easily be mistaken for evolution, as that is what the overall picture looks like.
Great! Then you can give us the diagnostic evidence that support your PC model over the evolution model. After that, maybe you can give us some of the possible applications of your PC to practical science.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Gosh HBD, this is the sort of history of science we all got in elementary school. It's really kind of embarrassing. Why are you talking down to dredge like this? He's a creationist, not a child.
Good point, Faith. But you have answered your own question.
This is such a bizarre straw man I don't see how you could bring yourself to make it. I also don't see how any of this has any importance in any of your examples so far.
As Herbie said earlier, analogies don't work with YECs. Literalists are way tooooo literal.
I have a feeling this discussion just took a dive into the Twilight Zone.
Oh, we're way beyond that.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I'm not a YEC.
Okay, so you're an anti-scientist.
Who said anything about an "instanteous expansion"?
People who refer to the Cambrian explosion as a real explosion. And yet there are a number of radiations in the fossil record. How many 'explosions' can you handle?
Tell that to the scientists who use the term "Cambrian explosion".
Tell that to the scientists who think the phrase is a regrettable misconception. That would be pretty much a unanimous agreement among those who actually work in related fields. Do you also believe that the sun actual rises and sets? "Cambrian Explosion" is simply a historical, descriptive precedence, used only for convenience. I know, it's complicated for anti-scientists.
"The Cambrian explosion was the most remarkable and PUZZLING event in the history of life" - S. J. Gould. It seems PE didn't explain the Cambrian explosion even for Gould.
Please explain. More likely, Gould was providing an evolutionary explanation for the 'Cambrian Explosion' in a way that actually fits the data.
No, because simple logic says it's irrelevant.
Kind of like the statement that evolution had no application in practical science, yes?
So your theory relies on fossil "evidence" that isn't known to exist. And you wonder why some folks are dubious about evolution science (so-called)!
My theory relies on the copious data that do exist. Perhaps you are confusing that with your theory that relies on a 'designer' that is not known to exist.
Mammals belong to the Chordata Phylum. The Chordate Phylum had its beginning during the Cambrian explosion.
Being a proponent of 'progressive creation' then, you should have no problem with the progression from Ediacaran Phyla life to Cambrian Phyla. And yet you reject that progression, insisting that Cambrian life forms just poofed into existence without precursors. Is this just a manifestation of your trollish nature?
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Herbie states:
Actually the "theory of creationism" states that the theory of evolution is wrong and all who accept it are atheists
Dredge replies:A citation, please. It's simple logic. Creationists have never been able to state a theory or to provide scientific evidence for creationism. They have only been able to attack evolution with denial, emotional assertions and logical fallacies. Just as you are doing here. For instance, asserting that evolution has no practical application in the applied sciences is an asserted opinion of no consequences and of no effect except to troll real scientists. One could say that this is dishonest.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Referring to observed evolution as "empirical evolution" doesn't avoid the science in any way and it will create a clear distinction between factual evolution and theoretical evolution. The term "microevolution" is rather vague as there is no defined point where MICROevolution ends and MACROevolution begins.
Heh, heh ... Furthermore, when speaking of "evolution", it is sometimes unclear what is being referred to - is it empirical evolution or theoretical evolution, or both? But if "empirical evolution" is used (as I have defined it), it's meaning is clear and unambiguous. Time to trot out one of the old, time-tested YEC tools: semantic ambiguity. Go ahead and keep making up your own definitions, and keep us entertained. I remember when, for a time, I had to refer to 'organic evolution' or 'biological evolution' because some YEC confused 'evolution' with such processes as rusting iron. Really ... I think that most of us know what we are talking about here.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
A progressive creation model easily accounts for the Cambrian explosion, ...
So does magic.
... the never-ending missing-links in the fossil record and the sudden appearances of fully-formed creatures with no evolutionary history.
All of which exist only in your imagination.
The theory of evolution has to explain these problems away with yet more theory - punctuated equilibrium, for example.
And?
You haven't thought this through, have you? Expecting a practical application for a religious belief is illogical.
That is exactly what I've thought through. So what is the point of this thread? You have expended thirty some pages on a point of exactly no consequence.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I don't recall denying that. Please point out where I did.
Okay, then you agree that the theory of evolution is useful, yes? Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Sorry, but it's not "exactly what the OP says". The OP specifically asks for PRACTICAL uses for UCA. The concept of UCA is not "useless", because it's useful in evolutionary theory - however it is useless in any practical sense.
So, no real point to this thread then. UCA is not useful to you so it is not useful to you. That makes sense. What will be your next revelation? Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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