Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections

It is not evident to me because you yourself do not believe it. All that you can do is report what the book says. Which is unimpressive. Look at my situation. I am nearly 60 years old. Diabetic. Just had eye surgery, and fight to maintain health. I am no longer young and strong. I have belief, and it had served me well for many years, but for some reason, I had to attempt to prove its validity...test it, one may say. Why this is important to me, I do not know. I have to be honest with myself, however. Perhaps I looked at God as a Being Who offered me a promise. And now, I find no evidence, no promise, (except blood,toil,tears, and sweat) and it frustrates me...but I wont ever take the step of abandoning my belief and going over to the dark side as many of you have done. Perhaps I am looking for the right answer in the wrong place.

I am looking inside myself, however. I cant let myself down or I will die. (or be miserable)...

You may suggest that I give more spare change. All I know is that I owe money on medical bills, have no retirement saved up, am getting older and weaker, and on top of all that find no evidence of any sort of promise that I have believed in.

How can your logic and wisdom be of any comfort to me?

Phat writes: It is not evident to me because you yourself do not believe it.

Stop.

What I believe is completely irrelevant. What does the Bible SAY? Does it say, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us," or not?

You may suggest that I give more spare change. All I know is that I owe money on medical bills, have no retirement saved up, am getting older and weaker, and on top of all that find no evidence of any sort of promise that I have believed in. How can your logic and wisdom be of any comfort to me?

His can't. Neither can mine. Neither can yours.

The issues you have are political. No matter what world view you care to follow your only direct relief for these issues will be political. This society sucks for so many in your position.

But we can change things at least somewhat maybe but we have to get political. That means lots of jawboning with friends, neighbors and co-workers. Gotta go man the phones and help set up the PA systems and racks of chairs.

But ringo is right. Remember, there are many ways to hand out spare change that do not involve money. A smile, a helping hand, a kind word, a helpful gesture all good for a sagging disposition.

OK, I'll admit that it says what it says and that it says that God said it. For some reason, this provides scant comfort for me. It is a story in a book from long long ago. I've been told that the book is inerrant. I've also been told and believed that the words were alive, like living water. All that is promised, however, is that I know good and evil and have to work my whole life. This is depressing! Granted some people are worse off than I am. Perhaps I never was promised anything special.

Phat writes: Perhaps I never was promised anything special.

None of us were.

That's progress though - the beginning of realising that we need to make the best of what we are and not invest so much into impossible fantasies. You've been unlucky to have been born in a sophisticated country with contradictory unsophisticated and very primitive beliefs.

You would have done better being born either in my Muslim village in the Atlas mountains where your beliefs wouldn't be challenged, or a 'nice' village in the Home Counties of England where your beliefs would be so flexible that they can't be threatened by anything.

Phat writes: It is a story in a book from long long ago.

It's the same book that contains the stories about Jesus. It's the only source you have.

Phat writes: I've also been told and believed that the words were alive, like living water.

In which case you should try to get something worthwhile out of them instead of throwing away the ones you don't like.

ringo writes: Becoming more like God is not a fall.

It is if pride is involved.

Humans think they will survive against incredible odds and conquer space (and time). Take away all of our gadgets and we are still much like bonobos.

One reason why I need God is that I need to trust an authority wiser than I am.

I also need support and encouragement. You seem to think God provides none of these.

I will admit that I need to trust humans more, but I feel that you have ruled God out simply because of lack of objective evidence.

Since when has belief ever hurt anyone?

Since when has belief ever hurt anyone?

Wow! Tee that one right up.

Have you heard of any of these things?

The Crusades.
Pogroms
Slavery
Christian Science religion
JW's and no transfusions
Dr. Tiller
Religions condoning and hiding sexual abuse
White Supremacy

Phat writes: ringo writes: Becoming more like God is not a fall. It is if pride is involved.

What has pride got to do with it?

Phat writes: Humans think they will survive against incredible odds and conquer space (and time).

I've corrected you on that many times. No we don't.

We know that most species go extinct and there's no reason to think that doesn't include us. And it's becoming more and more likely that we will become the authors of our own demise.

BUT - we are all we've got.

Phat writes: One reason why I need God is that I need to trust an authority wiser than I am.

What reason do you have to think that the God you made up is wiser than you, except that that's the way you made Him up to be?

(I'm thinking of Ian Fleming making up James Bond - in his own image but better looking, gets more chicks, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound, etc.)

Phat writes: I also need support and encouragement. You seem to think God provides none of these.

If you think He does, feel free to trundle out anything beyond your own imagination.

Phat writes: ... I feel that you have ruled God out simply because of lack of objective evidence.

And you have ruled out Zeus and unicorns and leprechauns for the same reason.

Zeus and unicorns and leprechauns...

These three characters have no following. Millions of people believe that God is real and that Jesus is alive. (Yes i know...appeal to popularity logical fallacy ) Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers n error? Many claim they have subjective evidence. Evidently, you and the hardcore skeptics are unimpressed with their stories. I've even had a couple of incidents that I knew were unexplainable. You simply advised me to leave them unexplainable rather than attaching Jesus or God to them.

I'm not convinced that it's best for us to teach society that cherished beliefs are a myth. And before you bring up Santa Claus, everybody knows he is a myth unless you are 4 years old.

Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe? I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did. After all you spent a third of your life in churches. Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character? I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.

Phat writes: Millions of people believe that God is real and that Jesus is alive.

Correction: Billions of people believe in thousands of Gods. A small handful believe Jesus is alive. So, logical fallacies aside, you lose the popularity contest anyway.

Phat writes: Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers n error?

You're pretty confident that the Hindus and Muslims are in error, aren't you? Why shouldn't I have similar confidence that you are in error too - especially since I know the flaws in your belief much better than I know the flaws in those others?

Phat writes: Many claim they have subjective evidence.

There's no such thing.

Phat writes: I've even had a couple of incidents that I knew were unexplainable.

So have I. Guess what? I don't explain them."God" is not a catchall explanation for the unexplained.

Phat writes: And before you bring up Santa Claus, everybody knows he is a myth unless you are 4 years old.

Every four-year-old Hindu knows that Jesus is a myth.

Phat writes: Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe?

I think they believe in a thousand different mutually-exclusive denominations and deities. Your Appeal to Authority doesn't work any better than yor Appeal to Popularity.

Phat writes: Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character?

Of course there were. Do you think there are no Hindus or Muslims or (shudder) Catholics with honesty and good character? Being honest doesn't make them right.

Phat writes: I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.

That's about it.

Phat writes: Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers in error?

Yes - such is the confidence that comes along with searching for truth using objective evidence.

Many claim they have subjective evidence.

This fact is what points in the direction of having confidence that they are wrong.

If the beliefs just started moments ago: "Wow - did you SEE that???"
-then you have a point. Perhaps the belief is correct.
-correct course of action is to go and investigate

But that's not what's going on.
The beliefs have been in place for thousands of years.
And... nothing. Not any objective evidence to back them up. Just people with "subjective evidence."

We've seen this before - many people having subjective evidence with no objective evidence to back them up:
-sacrifices are required to bring rain
-blood letting is a cure for all ailments
-vaccines give your kid autism
-"Want to know what's great about this time-share?" "Sure, can you show me something?" "No! ...but it's soooooo amazing!!!"

Can you name one thing where millions of people believed in subjective evidence, and when objective evidence came around... they were right?

If not, and I can name many, many examples of the objective evidence showing the "subjective evidence" to be false... that's what gives "confidence" that I am right and all the believers are in error.
That's what confidence means - that's where confidence comes from - where similar situations have happened before, and the same particular outcome occurred.
It's not a guarantee - but it's certainly confidence - much higher confidence then we have for other things like "I'm not going to die on my commute into work tomorrow."

Phat writes: Evidently, you and the hardcore skeptics are unimpressed with their stories.

I am impressed with the stories.
I'm also impressed with ghost stories.
I'm also impressed with alien stories.
I'm also impressed with selling-the-brooklyn-bridge stories.

I just don't have any confidence in them.
Because that's what experience has taught us for such types of stories.

Is it impossible for God to exist?
Is it impossible for ghosts to exist?
Is it impossible for aliens to walk amongst us?
Is it impossible to buy to the brooklyn bridge for $1?

Not at all.
But I'm pretty darn confident that they are all wishful thinking.

I'm not convinced that it's best for us to teach society that cherished beliefs are a myth.

I'm not convinced either.
But we've tried this - and it doesn't turn out well. A lot of society seems to think that "subjective evidence" is a great idea to apply to other aspects of their lives:
-like gambling
-like "multi-level marketing" scams
-like believing politicians at their word
-like marrying your high-school sweetheart just because "that's what people do" after they've been together for a while

Perhaps it's time to try to aim society away from "subjective evidence."
What are you afraid of in teaching people that "cherished beliefs" are, indeed "cherished beliefs" and not facts?

Perhaps some people need to have the entire world "believe something" so that they can, too.
But, if so - why destroy the entire world (see gambling, multi-level marketing, believing politicians, etc...) just to appease a handful in a tiny, subsection of their lives?
Perhaps there is another way to help these few cope while not handicapping entire societies?

I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did. After all you spent a third of your life in churches. Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character? I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.

My dream is that one day, some day... you will finally move past this false dichotomy you've been trained into holding onto.

Again, for the umpteenth time:

Nobody has a problem with believers who are honest and good people.
Nobody has a problem with believers who are not charlatans and fantasy dreamers.
Nobody has a problem with the vast majority of believers.

There's only a problem when believers attempt to pass their "belief" as "truth."

That's obviously wrong and needs to be stopped.
That is the path of charlatans and fantasy dreamers.
That is the path that "subjective evidence" encourages.

Phat writes: Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe?

Pretty much 100% of divinity and theology students are believers - or at least that's my experience sharing a flat with one. And what they learn is not what they preach - most believers would call what they teach heresy. I'm surprised they survive.

I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did.

quote:

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According to sociologist Phil Zuckerman, broad estimates of those who have an absence of belief in a deity range from 500 to 750 million people worldwide.[1] Other estimates state that there are 200 million to 240 million self-identified atheists worldwide, with China and Russia being major contributors to those figures.[3] According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).[5]

---

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

As for how people 'conclude the way they do'... multiple reasons but in global terms I doubt the majority conclude anything, they're just brought up that way. Just like you were.

The rest ringo covered and I'm surprised you needed to ask, I mean, we've covered this stuff over and over again but you still ask the same questions. It's The Barrier isn't it?

Why is the idea of Bible inerrancy so important?

Put it another way: what if the Bible had errors in it? The readers of the Bible would then have to use their own judgment about what to believe and how to act.

But that is what they do already, isn't it? And different people come to different conclusions about what to believe and how to act.

So to quote a famous philosopher, don't worry, be happy!

Sarah Bellum writes: Why is the idea of Bible inerrancy so important?

...to some people?
Because, obviously, there are many (most?) who do not think such a thing is a very important question at all.

I think it's a form of brainwashing/PTSD/just-the-way-they-are or, at least, something along that idea.
That is... people have been taught for so long, so strongly or just accept such beliefs so wholeheartedly... that Bible inerrancy is the only way to 'be a good person' or to 'protect their eternal soul' that they have so much personal, individual value placed on it... that they cannot fathom parting from it.

They cannot entertain the idea that it might be wrong. That there may be something else that is equally or even more important.
Moving in that direction "is a bad idea" has been trained into them so much that they cannot do it as 'an intellectual exercise' alone. It always includes taking a part of their spirit into a dark area they "know to be evil" and so they recoil from any attempts at all costs - the same way actual PTSD victims are involuntarily and undesirably triggered by seemingly benign (to the rest of us 'normal people') conditions. They can't help it - it's just the way their brain works (for whatever reason) at this point in time.

what if the Bible had errors in it? The readers of the Bible would then have to use their own judgment about what to believe and how to act.

A reasonable and logical pathway to identifying reality vs. belief.
My point is that those who do hold Bible inerrancy so important cannot answer this question honestly and proceed to follow down the path it leads to.
The way they work (in one way or another) simply prevents it.

But that is what they do already, isn't it? And different people come to different conclusions about what to believe and how to act.

Many people do things without knowing what they're actually doing.
"It's incredible what the human body can get used to." Accurately describes this phenomenon.

Many people never take that plunge into the level of honestly, fully understanding that "different people may think/act in different ways."
Therefore, they never have to think about how we can all "get along" since they actually believe everyone should just do things the way they do because "it works." They never understand that it only "works for me and my immediate friends/family."

don't worry, be happy!

It really is so simple.
And yet, so difficult for some to actually understand and enjoy the benefits. Tragic, really.