Christian principles in relation to government

I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality. (Just as an aside, Ann Coulter who wrote a book lauding Trump back in the beginning, recently said she knew when she wrote it that he was a "shallow, lazy ignoramus" but that she'd waited thirty years for someone to come along and say the things he said, and I think that sums up the conservative position on this. Policy, not personality.And I do generally accept that conservative policies are superior to liberal policies for governing a nation, because I do believe that they allow for the creation of wealth which is what created America's great wealth, and in any case conservatives in general take this position and that's why Trump got elected. The feeling was that Obama had sold the nation down the river as it were, that if we kept on that path we'd end up on the level of the Third World, and in this light Trump's campaign proposals were the desperately needed antidote. I'm happy if anyone sees that globalism is a problem and WANTS to protect us from it. I'd like to keep the conversation on that level. As you say scripture seems to suggest it is inevitable, but I don't want to get fatalistic about it, we should fight it with everything we've got and hope it won't happen for a few million years (my only context for approving of the idea of millions of years). Oh there are lots of things coming down that I could list but I don't want to take the thread in that direction. I hope we can get into the basics of how far Christian principles apply to government at all (and I changed the title of the thread to say that, by the way) as the Red Letter group clearly think they should. We used to be Christian, we are getting far from it.I bit off a lot to chew in these two topic proposals and I'm going to have to move carefully and slowly if I'm to survive it.

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The feeling was that Obama had sold the nation down the river as it were, that if we kept on that path we'd end up on the level of the Third World, and in this light Trump's campaign proposals were the desperately needed antidote.

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I think you have cause and effect the wrong way round. Most of the attacks on Obama were generated by opposition to the idea of a Democrat in the White House - anD in a number of cases opposition to having a Black President.Trump’s campaign promises do not seem to make a lot of sense. The tax cuts are going to massively increase the deficit. The repeal of the Affordable Healthcare Act mainly makes sense as an attempt to deny Obama a lasting legacy (Do you remember all the promises of a better system ? And in the end it came down to Republicans wrangling over how much they were going to take away ?). The Wall is an expensive boondoggle which will probably never be completely built and no way is Mexico going to pay for it. The attempt to destroy the deal with Iran is likely to be ineffective or worse to encourage Iranian development of nuclear weapons (and we all agree that an Iran with nukes is not a good thing).

Jesse James was richer than his neighbours too. He was the ultimate free-enterpriser.

1) Sounds like you are trying to defend conservatives despite saying that you don't want to.
2) Why is Trump's non-Christian behavior not rightfully on topic.
3) You've already demonstrated that you cannot defend Trump's economic policies in a way that makes any sense. You are instead repeating what someone else told you. Tell me specifically how you think Trump's policies help any but the rich, and then maybe a meaningful discussion can ensue. If the irony here is not evident to you, I doubt anything I say can help. My guess is that you cannot handle this topic. You are trying to defend the indefensible. But begging out of giving specifics is not the way to go.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

To put it more precise, trump lifts those sanctions because the Chinese 'loaned' a Chinese based construction company 500 million dollars to a Trump branded luxury resort in Indonesia could actually be built, which in turn puts 10's of millions of dollars of profit into the Trump owned franchise company

In fairness, the proliferation of loopholes meant that no one in their right mind actually paid those marginal rates. Your underlying point stands though. As more than a few people have pointed out, the U.S. was building schools and highways and going to the moon in the era when conservatives were bemoaning the growth of taxes and regulations.

As well as creating medicare and medicaid and making it possible for women to go out without wearing a hat and gloves and for black folk to drink at the fountain and eat at the counter and ride in the front of the bus and not have to step off the sidewalk to make way for white folk and ...you know. All those things the liberal Nazis did to folk.

On a different forum I once had a creationist claiming that it shur wunnut the Christians that was pro slavery in the antebellum South, it were the Damn Atheists. You know, the Confederate atheists, precursors to today's liberal nazis.

Hi FaithI would just say this. What I want to see in world leaders is character. I am what in Canada we call a red tory which means I'm more or less on the left hand side of the Conservative party. However saying that, hopefully with wisdom, I would vote character ahead of policy. In other words I would prefer a liberal of good character to a conservative whose character was questionable.I felt sorry for Americans voting in the last election because IMHO you had to choose between 2 candidates of very questionable character.The US is a great country. Surely you guys can do better than those two. Edited by GDR, : typos

But wouldn't logic suggest that in order to provide all of those essentials, individuals would have to be somewhat prosperous in order to share? You cant expect a poor man to give his last two mites to feed another poor family.

Thanks GDR. Well, Ben Carson had character but he didn't know anything. And there was Trump saying what conservatives had wanted to hear from a politician for decades. I do think he doesn't deserve what the Left is throwing at him in any case.However, the Red Letter people are wrong, they're really just liberals.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

She will argue that she is defending conservatism and not individual conservatives. Similar to attacking Catholicism and not individual Catholics. The focus is on the ideology in general and not on any personality of individuals. She will argue that they elected him because of his ideology and not because of his own personality or belief quirks. The only way to keep everyone from being "dragged down to the level of the 3rd world" is to help some prosper. Its trickle down economics. This is what i don't like about conservativism. They expect me to have to work hard to keep out of trouble.

Yes, Phat, America's poor have always been way better off than the poor elsewhere because the nation has been so prosperous. Silly to think otherwise.

Yes, thanks, and I thought that was clear enough even for NN but I guess not. I've already argued it. Why doesn't he get it?

Are current conservative policies helping Americas poor to keep up with the rest of the worlds poor?

How is the ever-increasing deficit and national debt helping Americas people?

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith