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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 721 of 882 (835151)
06-18-2018 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 720 by Tangle
06-18-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
No trace of irony, no. The God of the Bible is THE God, the Creator God, period. All the others are demon gods or vague notions of a Creator God who is essentially unknown -- because He can't be known by the fallen mind. The demon gods are revealed in God's word the Bible as the gods of all the heathen or pagan nations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2018 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 722 by ringo, posted 06-18-2018 6:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 732 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2018 3:53 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 722 of 882 (835152)
06-18-2018 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
06-18-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
...because He can't be known by the fallen mind.
The irony is that the obviously "fallen" mind - i.e. the one that isn't working right - is yours.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 5:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 9:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 723 of 882 (835155)
06-18-2018 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by ringo
06-18-2018 6:25 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Yeah that would be an irony, but of course you don't believe in God and I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by ringo, posted 06-18-2018 6:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by ringo, posted 06-19-2018 12:02 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 724 of 882 (835159)
06-18-2018 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 710 by Faith
06-18-2018 10:06 AM


Faith writes:
No, GDR, I do not WANT any such thing. You have chosen to create your idea of God according to what YOU want, but I haven't done that. I believe the portrait of God in the Bible is simply true and that's why I believe it. Certainly has nothing to do with my own likes and dislikes. I don't like God's severe judgments any more than you do, I simply believe they explain reality, that we are sinners and God's Moral Law must judge sinners harshly, that "the wages of sin is death."
Not really Faith. You have chosen to worship a deity based on a specific way of understanding of how God wants us to use the Bible. I have chosen a God based on the concept that God's nature, wisdom or Word was perfectly embodied by Jesus. As a result we have come to very different conclusions about the narure of God.
Faith writes:
So did the God of the Old Testament, who sent His Son to die for us to save us from His harsh justice. The only way that could be done was for God Himself to become man so that by having both natures, the God nature and the human nature He could die in our place and take our deserved punishment upon Himself so we don't have to endure it. Not to appreciate that fact is to trivialize the Jesus you think you admire.
Yes, the message that Jesus brought is mostly in the OT but so is a lot of other stuff that He repudiated.
I recently read a 600 page book by Flemming Rutledge called simply "Crucifixion". Believe me I don't trivialize what Jesus did. I'd suggest that you trivialize Jesus when you give priority to ancient writings over and above what He said and did even when that which He said was not of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:06 PM GDR has replied
 Message 727 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:17 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 725 of 882 (835161)
06-18-2018 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Tangle
06-18-2018 2:59 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Tangle writes:
Science does influece theology; it regularly shows that it's wrong. Because of that it's been described as heresy for most of its early life and those practicing it were tortured and murdered. It has been influencial is softening most religious beliefs though and forcing them to drop their more rediculous claims.
Firstly science was started by theists and partly because they were theists they assumed that the universe was orderly and so could be discovered.
Tangle writes:
I can physically demonstrate that the brain can be changed by the environment, it's an observed fact. It's as natural as a wound healing. It's not belief, it's scientific knowledge.
And again, you confuse process with agency.
Tangle writes:
You can see evolution as being created, but you can't see it as being controlled and guided to a specific end. Well you can, but then it wouldn't be evolution, because evolution, as you say, is random and mindless. You can't have it both ways, it's either on rails or it's a trillion rolls of the dice.
I have never said it was mindless. I have agreed that there is a great deal of randomness as part of the process.
Tangle writes:
Both intelligence and morality are evolved traits. We can see the development of both in related creatures. If you think empathy and intelligence are so special that they couldn't have evolved you have to show why.
Again, process and agency
Tangle writes:
Look, if I have evidence - very hard, repeatable evidence - that culture affects our morality, why do I still need an invisible unnevidenced, untestable supreme being to do the same job?
What I don't believe is that all of the processes needed to bring about the world as we know could have occured from mindless origins. You, however believe that they could have.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2018 2:59 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2018 4:10 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 06-19-2018 12:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 726 of 882 (835162)
06-18-2018 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by GDR
06-18-2018 9:51 PM


You have chosen to worship a deity based on a specific way of understanding of how God wants us to use the Bible. I have chosen a God based on the concept that God's nature, wisdom or Word was perfectly embodied by Jesus. As a result we have come to very different conclusions about the narure of God.
I was persuaded of the TRUTH of the traditional Protestant Reformation doctrines that are standard evangelical truth. I therefore accept everything God said about Himself. You on the other hand make up your God out of your own extremely inadequate ideas of who Jesus was and what He taught.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 9:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 727 of 882 (835163)
06-18-2018 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by GDR
06-18-2018 9:51 PM


"...even when that which He said was not of God?????????" Are you talking about Jesus here? Jesus IS God, He can't say ANYTHING that is not of God.
I tried to find out what theological persuasion Fleming Rutledge represents and couldn't find a review from anybody I know. It's perhaps enough to know she's a pastor of an Episcopal Church, which is against Christian teaching.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 9:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:27 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 728 of 882 (835166)
06-18-2018 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by Faith
06-18-2018 10:06 PM


Faith writes:
was persuaded of the TRUTH of the traditional Protestant Reformation doctrines that are standard evangelical truth.
Hmm.. so you are persuaded by what a group of guys said about what a group guys wrote thousands of years earlier and are saying that it is straight from God. It is making a false idol out of the Bible, at the expense of what God has done in and through Jesus of Nazareth.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 10:23 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 729 of 882 (835167)
06-18-2018 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Faith
06-18-2018 10:17 PM


Faith writes:
"...even when that which He said was not of God?????????" Are you talking about Jesus here? Jesus IS God, He can't say ANYTHING that is not of God.
.. even when He rejects and/or corrects what is in the OT.
Faith writes:
I tried to find out what theological persuasion Fleming Rutledge represents and couldn't find a review from anybody I know. It's perhaps enough to know she's a pastor of an Episcopal Church, which is against Christian teaching.
So the point is you are careful not to read a book by someone who disagrees with your views.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:33 PM GDR has replied
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 10:14 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 730 of 882 (835168)
06-18-2018 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by GDR
06-18-2018 10:27 PM


I am careful to avoid heretical writings these days, yes. It's not worth wasting my fragile eyesight on stuff like that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:41 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 731 of 882 (835169)
06-18-2018 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by Faith
06-18-2018 10:33 PM


It sure does keep you from learning anything new though.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 10:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 9:52 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 732 of 882 (835174)
06-19-2018 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
06-18-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
The God of the Bible is THE God, the Creator God, period. All the others are demon gods or vague notions of a Creator God who is essentially unknown -- because He can't be known by the fallen mind. The demon gods are revealed in God's word the Bible as the gods of all the heathen or pagan nations.
So much for love thy neighbour.
World peace isn't coming any time soon according to this childish fantasy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 5:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 9:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 733 of 882 (835175)
06-19-2018 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by GDR
06-18-2018 10:05 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
GDR writes:
Firstly science was started by theists and partly because they were theists they assumed that the universe was orderly and so could be discovered.
Irrelevant.
And again, you confuse process with agency.
And again you misunderstand. Deliberately, I can only assume. The agent IS the process. If you think there is another agent standing outside the process you have to produce it and show its influence.
Your problem is that you've already accepted that evolution is a random process so the only place an agent can be introduced is at the very start of the process. But if the process is random, the outcome can not be determined in any way.
I have never said it was mindless. I have agreed that there is a great deal of randomness as part of the process.
You've said it hundreds of time, do I have to go find them?
Now you're equivocating with 'a great deal of randomness'. Like pregnancy, randomness is binary - random or non-randon? Which?
At what point is your god interfering with the random process making it random for a while, then non-random, then random again?
What I don't believe is that all of the processes needed to bring about the world as we know could have occured from mindless origins.
Yeh, we know what you believe and don't believe.
You, however believe that they could have.
Sigh.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:05 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 734 of 882 (835176)
06-19-2018 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 731 by GDR
06-18-2018 10:41 PM


It sure does keep you from learning anything new though.
I read a lot of heresies, cults, occultism, before going with what I recognized to be the truth. Heresies aren't new, they are very old. At some point, especially with bad eyes, the reasonable thing to do is stop wasting time on the devil's lies and grow in what you know to be true.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by GDR, posted 06-18-2018 10:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by GDR, posted 06-21-2018 2:06 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 735 of 882 (835177)
06-19-2018 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 732 by Tangle
06-19-2018 3:53 AM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
So much for love thy neighbour.
World peace isn't coming any time soon according to this childish fantasy.
That's interesting. World peace depends on telling lies? Loving your neighbor means allowing them to go on in the thrall of demon gods?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2018 3:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2018 11:08 AM Faith has replied

  
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