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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 46 of 882 (832044)
04-29-2018 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
04-29-2018 3:56 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
quote:
I'm talking about the practice of preaching the Bible through, that some preachers do, usually taking a book and working through it over a long period of time, in some cases years
Which is still not a good way to understand it. Even if the preacher sticks to the text rather than adding interpretations to it. It’s too episodic and too spread out.
quote:
They preach on only one segment for a sermon or may even take a series of Sundays on that one segment and it may be just a few verses. If you hear this kind of preaching you will note that they often refer to various commentaries they've been studying about the passage, discussing where they agre
Given the abysmal quality of some of the commentaries quoted here that is not obviously a good thing. And even the less bad ones are liable to be affected by doctrinal commitments.
quote:
You do learn a lot of Bible this way
When it can take weeks to go through a few verses ?
quote:
There is another approach that is just as good I think, which is to take a topic, say original sin or anything you like, and preaching on all the texts that apply to that topic in various ways, quoting them all and discussing them all.
I can see that going very badly - at least in terms of generating real understanding.
You need to understand that the Bible is not a coherent text. You get a lot of cherry-picking, misinterpretation and harmonisations that ignore problems. Especially if you are an inerrantist.
quote:
Of course we should all read the Bible for ourselves. I was responding to the fact that Paboss apparently didn't know the Bible although he considered himself a strong Christian, so when he sat down to read it he discovered all these things about it that offended him. So I figure he wasn't getting any preaching on it either.
But they were the things that preachers typically do ignore. How many tell you about the contradictions, for one ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 3:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:16 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:20 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 882 (832045)
04-29-2018 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
04-29-2018 4:10 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Instead of pontificating from your position of knowing nothing, why don't you find out how it works. Pick a topic or a Bible book and go listen through a series of preachings on it at Sermon Audio.
In the process of preaching through a book many other passages from other parts of the Bible are also quoted and discussed as they apply to the same issues under discussion. Yes you do learn a lot of Bible this way. But your only exposure to the Bible in church isn't just the sermon, if good hymns are chosen they also teach the Bible, and there are Bible study classes and all sorts of other sources of knowledge.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:10 AM PaulK has replied

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 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 882 (832046)
04-29-2018 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
04-29-2018 4:10 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
But they were the things that preachers typically do ignore. How many tell you about the contradictions, for one ?
Lots of preachers discuss the supposed contradictions.
ABE: Here's a page of sermons on the topic of Contradictions at Sermon Audio. Not all are about supposed contradictions within the Bible but obviously some are. I haven't listened to any of them, I'm just showing you that it's not an ignored topic. If I were to pick one to listen to first I'd pick R. C. Sproul or James White.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:25 AM Faith has replied
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 04-30-2018 9:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 49 of 882 (832047)
04-29-2018 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:16 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
quote:
Instead of pontificating from your position of knowing nothing, why don't you find out how it works. Pick a topic or a Bible book and go listen through a series of preachings on it at Sermon Audio.
But I do know that listening for a relatively short time every Sunday is slow and episodic. I do know that it doesn’t take weeks worth of sermons to simply read a few verses. I do know that commentaries are biased and unreliable. And that’s the good ones.
Because reading is better and faster than listening, point me to a transcript of one of your sermons and I’ll read it. I simply don’t want to spend hours listening to recordings which aren’t likely to be of any value to me anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 50 of 882 (832048)
04-29-2018 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:20 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
quote:
Lots of preachers discuss the supposed contradictions.
And I bet they try to cover them up, too. And that’s my point. Real understanding is sacrificed on the altar of doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:29 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 882 (832049)
04-29-2018 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
04-29-2018 4:25 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
And I bet they try to cover them up, too. And that’s my point. Real understanding is sacrificed on the altar of doctrine.
They would most likely show how they aren't contradictions. I added an edit to Message 48 to refer you to Sermon Audio for talks on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:36 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 52 of 882 (832051)
04-29-2018 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:29 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
quote:
They would most likely show how they aren't contradictions.
I’ve read enough apologetics to know how that goes. There are real contradictions. Anyone who denies that opposes understanding of the Bible (but then we already know that you oppose that)
quote:
I added an edit to Message 48 to refer you to Sermon Audio for talks on the subject.
Have you got transcripts? That IS what I asked for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:45 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 04-30-2018 10:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 882 (832053)
04-29-2018 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by PaulK
04-29-2018 4:36 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Sometimes a sermon has a transcript attached to it, and there are also books on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2018 4:56 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2018 7:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 54 of 882 (832054)
04-29-2018 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:45 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I’ll look but if I don’t see them I’m not going to waste time on it.
I did watch a video of one of Sproul’s talks and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Message 66

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 882 (832097)
04-29-2018 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:45 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Sometimes a sermon has a transcript attached to it, and there are also books on the subject.
Perhaps Paul can pick a controversy, and you can pick your favorite sermon or source that explains why the controversy does not involve a contradiction. That would advance the discussion beyond the yes it does/no it does not stage.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:45 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 56 of 882 (832128)
04-30-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
04-29-2018 7:31 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
The situation on transcripts seems to be that there are a lot of them but it is very hard to find one that would be relevant.
However, I have looked for Sproul’s views. Apparently he holds the view that only strict logical contradictions count - which means that he can make up almost any nonsense he likes to explain them. He could explain the two accounts of Judas’ death by saying that Judas came back to life after the events described in Acts and then did as Matthew says (I am not saying that he did that - only that he could have, and that isn’t even the worst he could do).
Choosing such an extreme standard at the least indicates an awareness that there is a real problem, that can’t be easily addressed. It’s an implicit admission that there are good reasons to doubt Biblical inerrancy just from disagreements in the text.

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 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2018 7:31 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 04-30-2018 9:32 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 57 of 882 (832142)
04-30-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
04-30-2018 3:40 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I've been looking through the Sermon Audio list and haven't found one I particularly like yet. I would listen to unknowns myself but wouldn't want to recommend them to others unless I became more familiar with them. There's one preacher there who has a series on the contradictions in the Bible I may listen to but haven't yet, too much else on my mind.
The Judas death stories are difficult but with most such questions of fact it's usually a matter of one writer having part of the story and the other writer a different part. Living people don't just fall down in a field and burst open, so that probably happened after Judas was already dead and his body bloated and decayed, probably when his body fell from whatever he hanged himself on. Who bought the field is a question too, but it was bought with Judas' money so that even if the priests made the literal transaction one could say Judas bought it. Or Judas bought it before dying there and the priests made use of it for a burial ground later. Who knows. But it's really not terribly important and probably not even really a contradiction if we had all the details.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2018 3:40 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2018 9:42 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 58 of 882 (832149)
04-30-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
04-30-2018 9:32 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I should point out that I only provided that one as an example of what the demand for a strict logical contradiction allows. And I note that you didn’t address that point.
Anyway, would you say that the solution to the two stories of Judas’ death is that Peter provided a distorted account to malign Judas?
It’s certainly possible. And you need some explanation for the omissions which erase every sign of remorse in Matthew’s version

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 04-30-2018 9:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 04-30-2018 9:44 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 882 (832151)
04-30-2018 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by PaulK
04-30-2018 9:42 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I probably wouldn't agree with Sproul about that since you want a comment, and I've found I don't agree with him about other things. But I haven't had time to go through the list and find one I would agree with.
I'm not interested enough in the Judas story to try to figure out the details.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2018 9:42 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 8:48 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18448
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 60 of 882 (832155)
04-30-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:20 AM


Picking Sermons To Critique
I started out by picking a sermon by Dr.Dan Olinger titled Absence of Contradiction, Part 1.
He picks a list from infidels.org, taken primarily from the KJV, and found 69 contradictions with which to provide a basis for this particular sermon. I expect some bias from this preacher, but am giving him a fair listen.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
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