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Author | Topic: Religious Special Pleading | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
ringo writes: Well, I certainly believe in culture - and I don't want you deciding whether or not certain aspects of my culture are "harmful". And, as I pointed out, the issue is not whether the harm is cultural or religious or whether there is actually a distinction, but that it is harm. For the purposes of this discussion we can happily stick to uncontroversial religious reasons. It's a long shot but this may limit the extent you wish to retreat to definitional waffle and tactical diversions. Try sticking to the core issue - if you can.
I don't want you trampling on my culture because of your vendetta against religion. Too bad. I'll do you a deal, don't mutilate babies and I won't trample on your perverse and harmful culture.
But it's the adults who decide that it's mandatory. The children don't decide whether or not to go to school and they don't decide whether or not to be circumcised. Correct. In this case, the adults are harming children and our institutions are looking the other way. But I don't think this will survive another generation or two.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
NoNukes writes: What happens if you don't participate? That depends on which particular religious nonsense you believe, but this - which I posted before - seems to be the formal position
quote: My remarks apply to places other than Israel where the decision on whether or not to circumcise is left up to the parents, even though the decision may have a religious component. I don't see how this makes a difference to anything. Those minority Jewish parents choosing to reject circumcision are doing the right thing. The remaining majority are harming their children.
If the state is going to intervene in a parental decision, then I would expect the discussion to revolve around the risks, health benefits or lack thereof of the procedure, and the downsides. If you cannot make your case on that basis then as far as I am concerned, you have no case. I have told you twice now that over 200 children die every year in the USA alone as a direct result of circumcision. You have obviously not read the link I provided containing the evidence. I paste a chunk of it below if you're unwilling to go to the link. There are very good reason why this number is under-reported. Doctors may not put the cause of death as circumcision, preferring instead to quote sepsis or meningitis or other consequencies of circumcision.
quote: Circumcision DeathsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
NoNukes writes: So you aren't Jewish anymore? You remain Jewish, that is only a function of being born to a Jewish mother. You are, however, not going to get to Jewish heaven. And your community may reject you.
That is not a balanced statement of the risks and benefits. I have provided the benefits. There is a direct causal and immediate risk from circumcision. There are some future-based, benefits derived from correlations. Leaving the decision until the age of majority would make little difference to any future benefits. The balance is therefore against. The practice is also not done for any supposed benefits, it's purely religious.
I understand that circumcision is a tiny percentage of all neonatal deaths and that the deaths are primarily the result of infection, meaning that they are likely preventable. This is an odd argument. The facts are that the children die as a direct and immediate consequence of circumcision. Their deaths were not prevented.
The numbers I have seen are on the order of about half of what you claim here. I've shown you the source of my numbers - perhaps you would care to do the same - and I've given you reasons why the numbers are understated. I have raised three points which have not even been attempted to be answered. 1. Had this practice not existed, would it be allowed to start?2. If you believe there to be benefits to circumcision would you do it to your child? 3. If there are positive benefits to circumcision why is it not a population-based health policy for all males? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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ringo writes: That doesn't address what I said: I don't want you deciding what is harmful to me. Well that's a piece of luck, I'm not your government.
No deal. Trying to ban something that is "harmful" causes more problems than it solves. Yeh, banning slavery was a disaster. And don't even start me on discrimination.
Prohibition doesn't work. It only makes the criminals rich. That's fucking hilarous. You're comparing cicumcision with prohibition? Who exactly is going to get rich when circumcision is banned until the age of 18? Speakeasies for mohels?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
NoNukes writes: There are direct risks associated with everything including vaccinating your child. We don't, as policy, avoid all risks. So now we're comparing circumcision with herd vaccination for, what, mmr? Really?
You are not correct about the procedure not being done for any supposed benefits. And I should just accept your sayso on this? Are you trying not to say that Jews actually circumcise for health benefits not for religious reasons?
But again, that would seem to be the parent's call, and not yours. Correct, but maybe you're missing an essential point here? The parents are causing harm. Generally we do not allow that. You're still ignoring the 3 unanswered questions I note. I somehow don't think you're heart is in this one.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: I don't get what's harmful about circumcision Jesus Faith, don't you read? Over 200 babies are killed every year in the USA alone as a direct result of circumcision.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: Think it through. Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B. I have thought it through and it appears that you think that 7 day old babies slice the end off their own penis.
Maybe you've heard of abortion. When it was banned, backstreet abortionists did it, some of them out of principle, maybe, but some of them for the money. If you ban circumcision, you criminalize mohels and make the business more lucrative for the unscrupulous ones. Oh sure - some mohels will carry on their work for the few fundamentalists but since when did we defer from trying to prevent a harmful practice because some criminals want to continue the harmful practice?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: If you had thought it through, you wouldn't make such a statement. Seven-day-old babies do not have the capacity to give consent. They don't need consent, according to you they're doing it to themselves.
Maybe you haven't heard of abortion? We deferred from trying to prevent that practice - which some people do deem harmful - partly because criminals were continuing the practice in a way that was more harmful. Eliminating the ban on abortion made abortions safe. What nonsense. We allowed surgical abortion because it as deemed by society that women should have the right to it.
Another example would be marijuana. Some US jurisdictions have legalized its use and the Canadian government is about to do the same. In Canada, the express purpose is to keep the profits out of criminal hands and to reduce harm to children. And so....? We have laws which we change when we know more about harm and benefit. Circumcision is one of those things that is causing unnecessary harm to children who have no choice as to whether they have their dicks cut for a religion they know nothing about. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: Think it through. Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B. I guess when you said this, you actually meant A not B....so let's forget the whole thing and get back to the point.
It was deemed by society that women should have the right to choose, to give consent. That's what I'm saying. A person should have control over his/her own body. No law should prevent a person from treating his/her body as he/she chooses. We've already agreed this. It's non-contraversial
And if the person is under age - i.e. incapable of making an informed choice - then the choice is made by the parent or guardian. You tried to say that A should not be able harm B. Circumcision is unecessary harm to a child. If B want a lump of his dick removed, fine, let's wait until he can give his consent eh?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: No. I meant what I said. Let's try it again: We banned A from owning slave B because it was harmful to B. You're advocating banning B from doing something that you deem harmful to B. In this case B is a 7 day old child, so how can B do anything at all?
It's the difference between harming yourself and harming something else. Thus, the comparison to slavery doesn't work. Nothing works if you think Baby B can slice his own dick.
What part of "consent" do you not understand? I was wondering exactly the same of you. Baby B has not and can not give his consent.
Why not wait until he can give consent to education? Why not start kindergarten at age 18? You're attempting an equivalence between education and penile mutilation? Really?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: Exactly. He requires his parents' consent for any medical procedure. So, as I said, you entire A and B argument is total bollox, give it up.
Consent is consent. How do you think they differ in terms of consent? In the first (circumcision), consent is necessary because it involves only harm and risk. In the second (education) it is unnecessary because it is only beneficial.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Ringo writes: That claim depends on circumcision being harmful. You finally noticed the point of the entire discussion.
Medical practitioners and lawmakers don't agree with you. I have provided the evidence - from medical practitioners - that it is harmful. 200+ deaths per year in the USA alone, directly attributable to circumcision.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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ringo writes: There are risks to any form of elective surgery. Yes I know, I've pointed that out several times now. It's an unnecessary risk that adults are exposing 7 day old babies to for superstitious reasons.
Medical practitioners and lawmakers do not agree with you that circumcision should be banned. Many medical and lawmakers do agree with me. Now what?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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ringo writes: It isn't up to you do decide what's unnecessary. Is conversation restricted to those who make laws now?
And there are doctors doing it for medical reasons, not religious. You do love your repetitions don't you? All here agree that circumcision for medical reasons is perfectly fine. No need to bring it up again, eh?
It isn't banned. You lose. If it was banned, we wouldn't be haven't this discussion would we? Raising the consciousness of bad practices in the minds of others is how bad practices are stopped. It's already changing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9628 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
ringo writes: ... if you claim something "is" harmful you can expect to be challenged. I do claim it is harmful 200+ unnecessary deaths in the US alone. I am waiting to be challenged on this. As I am on the other tests I've rised. What I'm getting in response is your usual divertionary nonsens. No attempt to challenge fact or bring your own evidence. Just flat contradiction.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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