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Author | Topic: Religious Special Pleading | |||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Astrophile writes:
That's for them to decide. If Jews weren't circumcised, would it make any difference to the practice of their religion?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.
ringo writes:
Then they aren't equivalent. I didn't use the word "only". Modulous writes:
Then leave it up to the medical profession to solve their own "problem". You'll note I've included ethical, legal and medical opinion as to why non-therapeutic circumcision is problematic.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You can not argue from "circumcision is harmful in a small minority of cases" to "circumcision is harmful, period."
ringo writes:
You have been shown evidence that at least 200 children die as a direct result of circumcision every year in the US alone. You have not challenged this evidence. And circumcision has not been "proven to be harmful". Tangle writes:
A minority of cases.
Minor harms like, say, death. Tangle writes:
And the necessity also needs to be decided by the parents. Necessary medical procedures need to be agreed by parents.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
But millions of successful circumcisions are not. So no, you can not argue from the specific to the general.
200 unnecessary deaths is harmful. Tangle writes:
Millions of Jews and Muslims are using a different definition.
It's never necessary, by definition. Tangle writes:
Apparently yes. Non-Jewish and non-Muslim doctors started doing it for non-religious reasons. Would we allow this practice to start to today if we'd never done it?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
By that logic, all cars are harmful because some people are killed by cars.
200 unnecessay deaths. Unnecessary. Tangle writes:
And doctors are doing the same thing for rational medical reasons.
They're harming children for irrational, non-medical reasons. Tangle writes:
Same answer: if doctors were doing it for medical reasons, we couldn't stop people from doing it for religious reasons. Let's try that again. If it had never been done before and today a religion decided to cut mutilate boy's penises for non-medical reasons would we allow it?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Run! Run like the wind! Enough.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
In Message 133 you said,"... so those parents that beat their children, rape them, murder them, neglect them, etc etc etc are only harming themselves - so it should be permissible?" I pointed out that I didn't say "only" - i.e. I didn't say that beating, rape, murder, neglect, etc. "only" harms the parent. Then they aren't equivalent.
ringo writes:
I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.quote: Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent. Parents feel the harm that is done to their children. You're harming your position by not understanding that.
Modulous writes:
So why not be consistent and consult every stakeholder on the subject of abortion - instead of leaving it up to the woman and her doctor? I think it's best if we include ethics and legal professionals among other stakeholders - including penis-owners.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom. Double fail. The points have been made; they stand on their merits.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
But you were the one who called it "nonsense". I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
You misrepresented what I said. You equivocated child molestation with circumcision.
I showed that you made that claim. Modulous writes:
I'm not sure whether or not you're being deliberately dishonest. Otherwise, I'm fairly lucid. Were you trying to make a point or were you just confused?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It isn't about winning or losing. If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged. You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're wrong about a lot of things. I'm positive that is not your motivation![]() An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
And that still doesn't make any sense. You're making the same mistake as Tangle, trying to argue from the specific to the general. If you give an example of a brown dog, it doesn't follow that all dogs are brown. You said harming a child was equivalent to harming the parent. I used the example of parents who commit child molestation and other things to show that this was not true. Are there some parents who molest their children? Yes. Are there some parents who don't like their children at all? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that for most parents, if you harm their child you're also harming the parents. it's a pretty obvious point.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I don't think anything I said implied universality. I simply said that when you harm a child you harm the parent. It's still a point that you should address if you want to discuss the topic honestly.
Your argument relied on a universal statement. I simply showed it was not universal. Modulous writes:
And I haven't.
... you can't say that just because a parent consents it is not harmful. Modulous writes:
The problem we have here is that you're trying to dictate what is harmful, even if the child, the parent and the doctor all agree that it is not.
The problem we have here is about knowledge of harm. If a parent doesn't know their actions are harmful - they won't feel any harm - even if they are wonderful people. But if the actions are harmful, the child is harmed regardless of the parent's state of knowledge. Modulous writes:
And the doctor sees no need to seek your consent. In cases where there is no compelling need to make a decision, I see no reason for the doctor to even entertain the notion - let alone seek parental consent.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
Your argument takes the form, Some people are harmed by circumcision, therefore everybody should be denied the right to make their own decision. That's where I'm saying you're wrong.
If I'm wrong, make whatever argument you are making in the form of Because parents are sometimes harmed when their child is harmed ....{your argument here}..... circumcision is either not harmful, or the harm is justifiable. Modulous writes:
And I didn't say it was universally true. You're rebutting a strawman.
ringo writes:
Which is not true. It is only possibly true. There are cases where it isn't true. I simply said that when you harm a child you harm the parent. Modulous writes:
No doubt. All the more reason to tread carefully when intruding on individual rights. If it was just Muslims - I'm sure the practice would have been banned in the US alongside its female counterpart.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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