Religious Special Pleading

You quoted me but I didn't say that. It was Phat. However, I agree with him.

I don't get what's harmful about circumcision, there just seems to be an abstract objection to being "mutilated" and having it done against your will, but otherwise America is full of circumcised men who aren't complaining about it as far as I've heard.Are you "mutilated" if your appendix is removed? Does the foreskin have any particular function that you think is a big loss if it's gone?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

In the female case it would be irritating or painful, but I've never heard a circumcised man complain about that kind of experience.

But nobody's ever complained about a lack of sensitivity either. Wouldn't we know if there was such a problem from circumcision? But I've never seen either kind of problem discussed anywhere. I conclude there is no problem.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I can see that circumcision as an adult could cause problems but I'm not talking about that.Resenting having your foreskin removed as an infant doesn't say anything about sensitivity.I didn't have scientific studies in mind, I just thought we'd all know about something like this from the popular press, or even from personal experience, if it was a big deal, and that's what I meant about not seeing it discussed. If it interfered with a man's sex life I'd expect there to have been a big uprising and call for ending circumcision forthwith.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

"Feeling harmed" isn't what I was asking about, that's different from actually being harmed.OK I didn't know there is an uprising going on. But the guys in the second video aren't talking about any personal sense of harm, it's all abstract, the foreskin is necessary because.... They are protesting an idea rather than an actual harm.But that's OK, I can go with a law against circumcision for nonreligious reasons, but although there is really no reason for Jewish circumcision either since Christ came, I wouldn't want to prohibit it for them. It's really a political issue, there really isn't any harm, so let it be the parents' choice.

Why do hospitals circumcise infants anyway? Isn't that the job of the rabbis?

Yes, it would make a huge difference because circumcision is THE sign of their Jewishness, their belonging to Jehovah, decreed by God to Abraham, and decreed to be done on the 8th day after birth. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I would think that being a bone fide member of the Jewish community ought to qualify as "necessary for the welfare of the individual affected."

That is likely only true for the nominal or merely ethnic Jews who don't believe in their religious heritage anyway.

Well, that's a modern revisionist idea there because the Torah itself says circumcision is the mark by which a Jew is known as a Jew. Whether one personally "feels" one's Jewishness or not does not enter into it. The idea would be laughed to death in ancient Israel, and the person saying it probsably cast out of the community.

Hooray for them, but they aren't the standard. It's the orthodox Torah-following Jews who set the standard.

I have no idea how the community would respond, I only know that circumcision is prescribed in the Torah as necessary to being one of the Chosen People and that the orthodox take all that very seriously. It certainly affects the status of the child in the eyes of the community.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But welfare can be a psychological thing too, not just a literal situation. Knowing you are bona fide according to the Torah in an orthodox Jewish family context surely has to count as welfare.

Late circumcision is of course OK for new converts, but God threatened Moses because he hadn't had his grown sons circumcised. They were accepted then of course, but obviously infant circumcision was God's decree and putting it off is sin. And especially if you put it off to accommodate to worldly principles you are very much in sin.You cannot obey mere human laws when they contradict God's law. Otherwise of course we must obey them.Of course I don't believe the Old Testament laws are in force any more anyway because Christ fulfilled them all, but I'm arguing this from the point of view of a Jewish Torah follower who would be deeply offended, and also compromised personally, by a law against his religion.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.