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Author | Topic: Astronomers See Evidence of Something Unexpected in the Universe | |||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
It would have been better if I had used "convincingly" I think it would have been more accurate if you had chosen a phrasing that expressed a more personal sentiment. The less mysterious your comments become, the more obvious it is that we are looking at your own personal position rather than some weakness in the science. If you had made similar comments about biology rather than physics, I suspect more folks would think you sound like a creationist. I've reached that point already. Red shifted light and CMB are not separate lines of evidence? Sounds to me like a personal choice of what to understand rather than a serious questioning of the science. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Taq Member Posts: 10246 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
nwr writes: If you take red-shifted light, and red-shift it even more, you get microwave radiation. So I don't see that as independent evidence. There is also the fact that it is coming from everywhere in the universe and that it has the predicted power spectrum.
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Taq Member Posts: 10246 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
nwr writes: So better to call it an hypothesis, rather than a theory. Then I would be curious as to what you think a scientific theory is. In my view and the view of the vast majority of scientists, a scientific theory is a set of tested and supported hypotheses. The redshift of galaxies, the CMB, and the ratio of light elements tested those hypotheses and they were supported. Therefore, scientists call it the Big Bang theory.
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Taq Member Posts: 10246 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
nwr writes: It would have been better if I had used "convincingly". Then it just comes down to how stubbornly you will hold onto a position.
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Taq Member Posts: 10246 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
nwr writes: A theory should establish standards for research in the area. The Hubble red shift did that, by providing a new standard for measuring distance to remote galaxies. I'm not seeing anything comparable with BB. A standard of measurement is not a theory. Also, the BB theory predicts that redshift will correlate with distance. For most of us, when predictions made by a hypothesis match observations we call that a supported hypothesis. A theory is a group of supported hypotheses and is also a framework or model for making further hypotheses. That's the standard in science.
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nwr Member Posts: 6479 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
And if one considers that the response in Message 66 was wholly *unconvincing* in terms of rebuttal or any indication the evidence described was understood.
I am not trying to convince other people to agree with me. I am only explaining why I remain unconvinced.
Mustn't one concede that expansion has been *convincingly* demonstrated to science, though of course still tentative and open to change?
No. Because "science" does not name any entity that is capable of being convinced.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6479 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
I think the classic "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." is fine, and not at all 'casual'.
Personally, I don't consider that to be satisfactory.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Percy Member Posts: 22836 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
nwr writes: I am not trying to convince other people to agree with me. That's fine.
I am only explaining why I remain unconvinced. Begin any time.
Mustn't one concede that expansion has been *convincingly* demonstrated to science, though of course still tentative and open to change?
No. Because "science" does not name any entity that is capable of being convinced. Someone recently said, "I don't need to play word games." They seem good words to live by. --Percy
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nwr Member Posts: 6479 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Then it just comes down to how stubbornly you will hold onto a position.
Clearly wrong. I am not holding onto a position. I am patiently waiting to see what other evidence shows up.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Taq Member Posts: 10246 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
nwr writes: Clearly wrong. I am not holding onto a position. I am patiently waiting to see what other evidence shows up. Until you explain why at least 3 independent lines of evidence are not enough it looks a lot like stubbornness.
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Modulous Member (Idle past 173 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Personally, I don't consider that to be satisfactory. It's a word. If you want to coin a new word which refers to whatever you are thinking of as something that 'establish{es} standards for research' you are welcome to (it sounds like a 'protocol' to me, but I expect there are more notions you are thinking of that you haven't described here). But the word 'theory' has been used in this way for longer than either of us have been alive - I'm at a loss as to how a word can be satisfactory or otherwise, but it doesn't seem an important point either way.
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