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Author
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Topic: R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 151 of 175 (864166)
10-07-2019 2:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
10-07-2019 10:07 AM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
Oh I'm sure a few agree with him, Faith! He irritates me, but he helps me understand my own beliefs...even if only by causing me to firmly disagree with him! 
God has no greater part in determining a person's "Christianity" then if one is a Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist or ... Atheist? OK how about evil? or noble and good? Essentially you have unmasked your belief, jar. That it is we and in no part "He"... Go ahead, ask me what the evidence shows! Because that jury is out. There is no solid evidence in support of your position. I am going to have to go here:
What Is A True Christian?Im reading the entire thread. Some good quotes from current active members:
ringo writes: My opinion is that a true Christian is a follower of Christ, somebody who goes where He goes, does what He does... which evolved into following the message rather than the messenger.
JonF writes: f course, God wants us to study and interpret His word and His creation. If He wanted us to follow a list of actions by rote without thinking, He would have given us an explicit list. Yes, you might get your Biblical interpretation wrong but still follow Jesus and do what He said we had to do to be saved because our hearts tell us it's right not because it's a list on which you check off each item as you do it. jar writes: Phat, what does the evidence show? You've been here for over a decade and been able to watch fundies debate atheists, agnostics and liberal Christians. You have personally debated atheist, agnostic and liberal Christians. Can you think of even a single instance when fundamental or Biblical Christians have even been able to support their assertions much less convert an atheist, agnostic or liberal Christian? Could you really watch such a film without either breaking a rib laughing or throwing up?
And
How can anyone win a war against made up fantasy enemies?
(to jar) So you dont believe in demons apart from what humans create? I can go with that...but not so much that we also create God. That is a threat to my faith. And unlike the atheist secular humanists, I can't live without that inner assurance. Granted I admit that we make the world that we create....to a degree. I believe that we are responsible...to a degree. But I don't ...I wont....throw God away. I cant. Also...as to my personal belief regarding demons? I can throw them away, but I have had experiences that cause me to think and believe that scripture is more than a simple human creation. Religion might be, but Jesus is larger than the book and GOD? I will agree with you (jar) that He is undefinable except what scripture shows us...and people have been trying to describe Him for years. So on that one, I agree with GDR. We see God through the lens of Jesus. What do you think, Faith?  Edited by Thugpreacha, : clarification
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by Faith, posted 10-07-2019 10:07 AM | | Faith has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 154 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:16 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 152 of 175 (864168)
10-07-2019 3:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 148 by jar
10-07-2019 12:51 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
Your having no idea if anyone else agrees with you means to me that nobody does. Your opinion is as usual outside the mainstream so far that even finding anyone else (within that mainstream) who shares it is unlikely. You are at least original in your heresies. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 148 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 12:51 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 155 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:16 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 153 of 175 (864169)
10-07-2019 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 146 by Theodoric
10-07-2019 10:49 AM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
The deity of Christ is standard Christian theology that both Mormons and JWs deny.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2019 10:49 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 154 of 175 (864170)
10-07-2019 3:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
10-07-2019 2:58 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
Phat writes: Atheist? OK how about evil? or noble and good? Essentially you have unmasked your belief, jar. That it is we and in no part "He"... Go ahead, ask me what the evidence shows! Because that jury is out. There is no solid evidence in support of your position. Really, no solid evidence Phat? Do Hindus exist? Do Muslims exist? Do Buddhist exist? Do Taoists exist? Do JW and Mormons and Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians and Greek Orthodox Christians and Russian Orthodox Christians and a brazzilion spontaneously created by some "call" (or profit) and not associated with any recognized Christian Sect Christians exist? Religions are 100% human constructs and that includes ALL religions. Noble, evil and good are all human constructs. Every person, every society decides what is evil, noble or good.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 2:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 156 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 3:32 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 155 of 175 (864171)
10-07-2019 3:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
10-07-2019 3:11 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by Faith, posted 10-07-2019 3:11 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 156 of 175 (864175)
10-07-2019 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 154 by jar
10-07-2019 3:16 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
jar writes: Noble, evil and good are all human constructs. Every person, every society decides what is evil, noble or good. I can agree with that. What I don't agree with is that God is a human construct. Just because people don't agree on Who or What He is (and does) does not mean that we are collectively creating Him. Metaphorically, He confused our languages in Genesis 11 because He was aware that the people...as one...in unity...could achieve ANYTHING. And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:16 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 3:40 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 158 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:43 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 157 of 175 (864178)
10-07-2019 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
10-07-2019 3:32 PM
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The Internet Is A Modern Tower Of Babel
and another thing....we are again trying to become One without GOD. Its the next evolutionary step that y'all are waiting for....to throw Him away and remove the shackles of organized religion. I can agree that religion itself is unnecessary but again, I wont agree that Christianity is only about what one does and that one need not believe or have a relationship with God/Jesus. And yes, I can see it coming! jar will again ask me for the umpteenth time how such a relationship is even possible. Did it ever occur to you that you may have been taught incorrectly?
jars belief statement writes: I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me. I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans. That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice. Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away". But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human. A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil". A God cannot be threatened, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence". A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead". Jesus talked often with His Father. Was He schizophrenic? Can all of the other religions and beliefs make it to heaven? Absolutely. Should we throw God away? Nowhere does Jesus even hint at this heresy.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 3:32 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 161 by ringo, posted 10-07-2019 4:41 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 158 of 175 (864179)
10-07-2019 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
10-07-2019 3:32 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
Phat writes: Metaphorically, He confused our languages in Genesis 11 because He was aware that the people...as one...in unity...could achieve ANYTHING. And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail. Actually no, that is not what the Bible says Phat. There is nothing in that story even hinting at "And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail.". That's all stuff the Apologists added to the story. In the story the God is worried that once they build the tower to the heavens "There goes the neighborhood."
Phat writes: Just because people don't agree on Who or What He is (and does) does not mean that we are collectively creating Him. When every religion and every sect within each religion "don't agree on Who or What He is (and does)" yet each claims to KNOW God; who other than humans are doing the creating?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 3:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:29 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 160 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:41 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 159 of 175 (864187)
10-07-2019 4:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by jar
10-07-2019 3:43 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
jar writes: In the story the God is worried that once they build the tower to the heavens "There goes the neighborhood." How does your interpretation differ from what an apologist would say? Are you saying that " the God" was worried about Heaven becoming crowded? That's more silly than my explanation! God came down (to our level, maybe?) and declared:
Gen 11:1-9 writes: And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. KJV Note: The people imagined to do something all of their own accord in order to make a name for themselves. What would be so wrong about that? And why do you assert that this "God character" felt threatened? Seems as if you imply that we humans could actually reach Heaven.  Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:43 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 164 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 5:07 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 160 of 175 (864190)
10-07-2019 4:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by jar
10-07-2019 3:43 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
There is nothing in that story even hinting at "And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail.". Right here: 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. As far as adding to the story, I could say that your interpretation is adding to the story as much as mine. Its patently silly to describe a God who is worried about the neighborhood. All that is is a reflection of the humans.
When every religion and every sect within each religion "don't agree on Who or What He is (and does)" yet each claims to KNOW God; who other than humans are doing the creating? Good question. Is GOD bigger than the book? Is He more than what humans can "imagine"?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by jar, posted 10-07-2019 3:43 PM | | jar has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 671 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 161 of 175 (864191)
10-07-2019 4:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
10-07-2019 3:40 PM
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Re: The Internet Is A Modern Tower Of Babel
Phat writes: Should we throw God away? Nowhere does Jesus even hint at this heresy.
Really? Take a look at The Day Jesus Threw God Out of Church (Full disclosure: I have no idea who this Steve McSwain is.)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 3:40 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 162 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 162 of 175 (864192)
10-07-2019 4:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
10-07-2019 4:41 PM
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Re: The Internet Is A Modern Tower Of Babel
Interesting take on it. Dr.Steve McSwain seems to be more of a universalist spiritual consciousness type guy rather than a strict fundamentalist. Food for thought, however. It seems, rather, that Jesus threw people out of the church. Not His Father.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by ringo, posted 10-07-2019 4:41 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 671 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 163 of 175 (864193)
10-07-2019 4:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
10-07-2019 4:45 PM
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Re: The Internet Is A Modern Tower Of Babel
Phat writes: It seems, rather, that Jesus threw people out of the church. Not His Father.
It seems to me he was talking about freeing God from the Church - i.e. throwing away the stories about God that are made up by the Church.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 162 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:45 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 164 of 175 (864198)
10-07-2019 5:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
10-07-2019 4:29 PM
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Re: Another Critic of Calvinism.
Phat writes: What would be so wrong about that? And why do you assert that this "God character" felt threatened? Seems as if you imply that we humans could actually reach Heaven. Yup. the God character felt frightened. Actually that's a pretty common theme. It is the same in Genesis 2&3, the God character is afraid the humans would become just like God so chased them out of the neighborhood and put up signs "No Humans Allowed". It's not what I assert, it's what is actually written and in fact you even quoted.
quote:
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
There's absolutely nothing in the story that even remotely suggests "Metaphorically, He confused our languages in Genesis 11 because He was aware that the people...as one...in unity...could achieve ANYTHING. And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail." rather it says that they would succeed unless God stopped them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:29 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 165 of 175 (864203)
10-07-2019 6:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
10-07-2019 4:45 PM
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Re: The Internet Is A Modern Tower Of Babel
It seems, rather, that Jesus threw people out of the church. Not His Father.
But they are one in the same. That is what your religion claims
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 162 by Phat, posted 10-07-2019 4:45 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 166 by Phat, posted 10-08-2019 5:49 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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