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Author | Topic: REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18586 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however. An Episcopal Dictionary Of The Church "taken from the dogma of your cult"....
Anglican formularies have tended to speak of sanctification as the process of God's work within us by means of which we grow into the fullness of the redeemed life. In the 1979 BCP, sanctification has been closely associated with the Holy Eucharist, as in the prayer of thanksgiving: "Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom" (Eucharistic Prayer A, BCP, p. 363); and: "We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit" (Eucharistic Prayer B, BCP, p. 369). Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however. Learn to read, Phat. There is NOTHING in what you quoted about hereditary sin or the fall or anything related to the Genesis 2&3 fable. Once again, you are simply trying to find and failing to find support for your position. "Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom" Notice it talks about serving, stuff YOU do, not what others long dead did. But if you had fully read your link you would come across both the origin of the dogma of Original Sin (which you and I have discussed in the past) as well as the modern understanding.
quote: So two passages from Paul are what is used to justify the whole concept of Original Sin and if you actually go and read those passages they misrepresent what is actually written in Genesis 2&3. Reading on you would have seen:
quote: Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does. Your source ended with:
quote: Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centerdness. Salvation if it should happen in the theological context will be after one is dead. What is needed in reality is an attempt to improve the actual living conditions for those folk not dead.
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Phat Member Posts: 18586 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Good response! I actually did read all of what you quoted. Thanks for reemphasizing it though.
jar writes:
Exactly! I am also talking about behavior and nature. I don't simply expect God to rescue me without also changing me. Again, what I find irritating about your arguments is primarily the way that you verbally belittle your opponents.
Reading on you would have seen:
quote: Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.jar writes: So my question to you is this: Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centeredness. Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help? If we are to succeed then yes, regardless of whether or not we get any help we need to rise above our innate self-centeredness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18586 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Just agreeing on a global consensus for addressing global warming will require herculean sacrifice from every nation...be they spiritual or secular.
I predict that we will see some very challenging times--though I refuse to believe that we are facing the last days of humanity here on the planet. I will say that we could collectively become victims of a self-fulfilling prophecy if we fight amongst ourselves as to what everyone should believe. You have said before that Jesus was a failed Messiah, but the words that He said will be used to justify many actions by many people. Let's just hope that it all works out. It is ironic that the common dogma is fear of a unified one world government that is a secular humanist one and which minimizes the need for Jesus or religion in general. How ironic when, in fact, there will need to be a unified global consensus in order to deal with major problems. Whether or not this fulfills the prophetic interpretations of the apologists or becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy remains to be seen. Edited by Phat, : clarificationChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1669 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition of spiritual darkness into the Kingdom of God and there are lots more verses about how the rescue is accomplished through His blood. May dig them up eventually.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But there is no such thing as a fallen position.
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ringo Member (Idle past 636 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
The mistake you make is in thinking of "The Fall" as a historical event. It's actually a description of the imperfect condition that mankind has always been in. We don't need to be "rescued" from anything. We just need to learn how to deal with our condition. The knowledge of good and evil, which lifted us closer to God, is one step in that learning process. All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 636 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
double post
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1669 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 636 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
How does that address what I said? "The Fall" was not a historical event (nor was it a fall). The "one man" was not a historical personage. Romans refers to the metaphor in Genesis. Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1669 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Yeah, well if you are just going to make the words mean what you want them to mean there's no answer to you, is there? The one man is clearly presented as a historical personage which tells us that the passage in Genesis is historical and not a metaphor.
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ringo Member (Idle past 636 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
On the contrary, the talking snake should be your first clue. No talking snakes in history. The one man is clearly presented as a historical personage which tells us that the passage in Genesis is historical and not a metaphor.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1669 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Both a talking snake and a talking donkey in scripture though. Nothing is impossible with God. The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 636 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
But you said it was "presented" as history. Clearly it is not. History is never presented with talking snakes or talkimg donkeys. It is presented either as a miracle or as a metaphor or as a fairy tale.
Both a talking snake and a talking donkey in scripture though. Nothing is impossible with God. Faith writes:
The other problem with that is that there was never a time in history when there was only one man and one woman. It's biologically impossible. Therefore, it's another miracle or another metaphor or another fairy tale. The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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