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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 947 of 1184 (895065)
06-07-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 946 by jar
06-07-2022 8:30 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Wait a minute. Are you saying that in many cases, "The Police" and "Responsible Gun Owners" disagree about eliminating or controlling crimes of violence through legislation?
And are you saying that since there will always be profiteers, the motive should be controlled?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 946 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 948 of 1184 (895068)
06-07-2022 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 938 by Percy
06-06-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Biden's speech
If it's the media's fault then we should be thankful that the mass murders are coming so fast and furious. This gives the media too little time to report and sensationalize each one. Just as a media team takes off for Philadelphia to sensationalize a mass murder there another happens in Chattanooga, so they divert there, and then another happens in Saginaw, Michigan, so they divert there, and in the end they never get anywhere, just fly around in the sky. Let us thank God for enough mass murders that before the media can properly sensationalize one mass murder another happens.
Divert?? Too little time?? This isn't the early 20th century, they have things called video cameras now, they have multiple crews that can spend all the time they want at any location. Muir's back at his lavish news desk, showing the same Uvalde videos over and over again. Last evening, he talked live with his reporter Matt Gutman, who is still there with his entourage of camara men. Another ABC reporter, Amy Robach, is apparently full time on this indefinitely. She interviewed one of the teachers who was injured but survived, he's furious with police and wants to sue. I watched it, nothing bad at all said about the shooter. Muir, last night, told us to be sure to catch "Good Morning America", that there would be plenty more of her interview, and there was, they started the show out with 15 minutes of the drama.
After they moved on from that to more gun control and climate terror and JANUARY 6th!!!!!!!, I switched to Fox News. Got there just in time to see a recent taped interview with Kyle Rittenhouse. He has to have armed security, can't get a job etc. Then they showed a montage of a half dozen ABC and other mainstream reporters calling him a white supremacist terrorist, and other names, back before and during his trial. He's going to sue and he'll win, similar to how Nick Sandman did. But it will be a tiny percentage of what the mainstream media can afford to lose, and it won't change how they operate one bit.
They couldn't imagine the technology, but of course they could imagine a media like today's, even much worse, because they already had a media like ours. In fact, more newspapers and pamphlets were extremely vicious back then, with more Alex Jones and Glenn Beck equivalents.
Sorry, they did not have a media like ours. They did not have reporters making the equivalent of the $6 million per year (in those days dollars), because advertising and political war chests were nothing compared to today. They could very well have been "vicious", but they couldn't sensationalize much, because they didn't have today's technology, or funding. Today we have no way of knowing how much of Muir's $6 million is paid through advertising, and how much comes from the Democrat party. It's the same at Fox News of course, I'm not favoring Fox in what I'm saying here.
Who can tell what goes on the minds of mass shooters? You, obviously. You just told us they're all copycats.
That wasn't an analyzation of their minds, it's an observation of how they are, mentally disturbed, sick, stupid. They're not capable of much originality. But they don't have to be very smart to get around gun laws.
Except for people sounding the alarm about guns, those are all conservative excuses for why guns are not the problem. It's everybody else's fault. For some, like you, it's the media's fault, but you blame everything on the media. For others it's that there wasn't enough security. For others there were failures of procedure. Some think it's a mental health issues. Others think we need more red flag laws. Some blame American culture. But guns? Few conservatives blame the guns. They like guns, so they can't blame them.
It's not logical to blame hardware, simple hardware by today's standards, for actions of people. You don't think those other things you mentioned deserve exploration? Couldn't some additional money, from new taxes on the news media, be put to good use by exploring those things further? Wouldn't you on the left welcome my idea of growing the government in this instance? I'm not talking about taxing basic reports on the first day of these events, I'm talking about extended stays by media entourages, by week after week emotional interviews by reporters like Amy Robach.
The Supreme Court has said plenty about the First Amendment right to free speech. For example, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater (incitement). You can't defame people, as Deep vs. Heard recently demonstrated. You can't use fighting words or make threats (incitement again).
And you don't think the media is doing the equivalent of that today, by what they did to Nick Sandman, to Kyle Rittenhouse, and the Amy Robach frenzy they're stirring up for profit and ratings?
The government's determination to continue the Vietnam war was doomed once the media began focusing attention on what was really happening in Vietnam. Now the media is focusing attention on what is really happening with guns, and you, liking guns, are understandably unhappy about it.
Yes, because there's no question that 18 to 21 year olds are now buying up guns in record numbers, some of them future shooters, before new laws take effect. Common sense tells me that, though the news would never report it. Unhappy because Chicago has the most stringent gun laws in the country, and the most shooting records continue. Unhappy because gun controllers would respond to that by saying the guns are brought to Chicago from other areas of the U.S., and so need to be banned everywhere in the U.S. Unhappy by realizing that new guns would then pour into the U.S. over our wide open southern border.
If you're against ANY exploration of what can be done to reign in today's corrupt news media, that they're completely untouchable and can do anything they want to exploit human nature's more unfortunate characteristics, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by Percy, posted 06-06-2022 8:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1002 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 8:52 AM marc9000 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 949 of 1184 (895069)
06-07-2022 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by jar
06-07-2022 8:05 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
We have never funded mental health....
We have a similar issue going on here right now. A while back, a young fellow went to the emergency room asking for mental health help. They made an appointment for him and sent him away. Hours later, he returned to the emergency room saying he felt suicidal. Security guards threw him out. Hours later, his dead body was found in a lake a mile away.
During the last couple of years we have had almost as many deaths from suicide and drug overdoses as we have had from covid.
jar writes:
Colt is a great example. They have a website where you can look up a gun by the serial number.... Message 944
Another anecdote: In the 60s there was an armed robbery in Toronto. Somebody was killed. Police caught the perpetrator and recovered the gun. They traced it back to the Colt factory in Hartford, Connecticut and to the gun shop that had bought it from the factory and to the first person that had bought it from the gun shop. Then they traced it though a dozen or so owners - one had bought it for his girlfriend and she didn't want it so he sold it to a friend, etc. The gun had changed hands a dozen times before it was used in a murder and except for the first two transactions, every one of them was illegal. And everyone who owned that gun, except for the murderer, would probably consider himself a "responsible gun owner".

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 951 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 2:18 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 950 of 1184 (895076)
06-07-2022 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 947 by Phat
06-07-2022 11:00 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
No, not saying either of those. Read what I write.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 947 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 951 of 1184 (895079)
06-07-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 949 by ringo
06-07-2022 12:19 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
There is a statistic that you good folk can check and verify that is interesting.
Those private citizens in the US that are licensed to carry a weapon (the actual license varies from state to state and might be limited to just concealed carry or both concealed and open carry) rather than those who legally can do so under the recent so call Constitutional Carry laws or simply carry irregardless of any laws are about the most law abiding folk in the country. More law abiding than the police and certainly more law abiding than politicians as populations.
They are registered and finger printed and have had to pass admittedly far too simple tests and paid a fee that must be renewed at some interval. Almost all states keep records on both felonies and misdemeanors committed by the state licensed carriers and those licenses are subject to revocation.
These folk invest in training and knowing the laws and in practicing.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 949 by ringo, posted 06-07-2022 12:19 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2022 2:57 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 952 of 1184 (895081)
06-07-2022 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 951 by jar
06-07-2022 2:18 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
It's more than time to give up your guns Jar. Start with the big ones.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 2:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 953 of 1184 (895083)
06-07-2022 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 952 by Tangle
06-07-2022 2:57 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
LOL
First, why?
Second, what are the big ones?

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2022 2:57 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 954 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 5:26 PM jar has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 822
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 954 of 1184 (895086)
06-07-2022 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by jar
06-07-2022 4:52 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Don't play stupid, you know exactly what he's talking about. Nobody needs weapons of war for personal protection or hunting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 4:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 955 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:30 PM kjsimons has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 955 of 1184 (895087)
06-07-2022 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 954 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 5:26 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
LOL
What are weapons of war? And quite frankly I do have some weapons of war that were actually used in wars, but I don't think you actually have a clue what I do have.
Much of the so called weapons of war are just a matter of the utter ignorance of the people using the terms.
For example, one of the actual weapons of war that I own is a semi-automatic pistol chambered in 32 acp. It was a GI bring back most likely from either North Africa or Italy.
The problem is people use the terms and end up just like Biden making really really really stupid statements.
And buy the way, I actually know what weapons I do have unlike either of you.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 954 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 5:26 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 956 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM jar has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 822
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 956 of 1184 (895089)
06-07-2022 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 955 by jar
06-07-2022 5:30 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Stop being so pedantic. All these recent mass shootings have used weapons that no citizen has any need of with cartridge counts that are ridiculous. None of these are guns that would be useful for hunting or normal self defense. They would only be useful on the battlefield.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 955 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 957 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:43 PM kjsimons has replied
 Message 970 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 9:13 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 957 of 1184 (895090)
06-07-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 956 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Again, that is simply incorrect. While I personally think most of the guns folk get their panties in a wad over are so butt-fugly I would only use them on a moonless night while wearing a mask for fear of anyone laughing at me, an AR15 also does make a suitable target or hunting rifle.
The issue is violence, not some particular platform.
But let's talk specifics.
The Ar15 is often mentioned. Did you know that the most common caliber cartridge for an AR15 platform is a 22 caliber? But it can also be chambered in a whole variety of other calibers.
So if you want to write a law banning weapons of war, what would be the wording?

Edited by jar, : appalin spalli


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 956 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 958 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 6:55 PM jar has replied
 Message 959 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 7:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 960 by dwise1, posted 06-07-2022 7:29 PM jar has not replied
 Message 965 by xongsmith, posted 06-07-2022 9:01 PM jar has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 822
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 958 of 1184 (895093)
06-07-2022 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 957 by jar
06-07-2022 5:43 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Again, you are avoiding the obvious destruction these weapons have had on society. The US would be a much better place if 99% of firearms were removed. They have no place in a civilized society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 961 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:04 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 822
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 959 of 1184 (895094)
06-07-2022 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 957 by jar
06-07-2022 5:43 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
The biggest part of the problem is the size of the cartridges. They allow an obscene amount of ammo which again, is not needed in for hunting or self defense but is only good on the battlefield. Why do you defend the right of people to massacre school children, grocery store shoppers or nightclub goers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 962 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:09 PM kjsimons has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5946
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 960 of 1184 (895095)
06-07-2022 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 957 by jar
06-07-2022 5:43 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
So if you want to write a law banning weapons of war, what would be the wording?
I just returned from visiting my son on the other side of the country. He just finished first year law school and he's an ex-cop. Furthermore, he owns a sidearm. I feel that this would make him a reliable source, however he voted for Trump and refuses to get vaccinated, so ... .
During Biden's speech, he got upset and a bit of an argument erupted between him and his girl friend about "assault weapons" which he said that the AR-15 is not (as I gathered, due to its lack of full automatic fire). Apparently most people think that the "AR" stands for "Assault Rifle", which I already knew it doesn't but rather it refers to the original manufacturer, Armalite, so it stands for "ArmaLite Rifle".
I haven't verified this, but he started talking about such weapons having been banned by a law in the Clinton Administration, but adding a handle changed the AR-15 to no longer fit the legal definition and so it is no longer covered until that law.
Whether I'm remembering and understanding it correctly or not, it does underline the importance of how the law is written. Because in prosecution, the wording of the applicable law(s) and how it is interpreted is crucial. That is why it is so difficult to deal with many forms of misconduct and with issues of privacy and search-and-seizure on-line (or even just in one's electronic devices", because the laws that should be applicable were not written to cover the new technology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:43 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 961 of 1184 (895096)
06-07-2022 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 6:55 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
LOL
And again you are simply being utterly stupid.
There are over 400 million firearms in the US today. It's fine to say stupid stuff like " The US would be a much better place if 99% of firearms were removed. They have no place in a civilized society." and even if that were true, just how do you go about getting rid of them?
If you actually read what I've posted in this thread, the issue is not gun laws, it's thinking utterly stupid gun laws would actually do something and ignoring root cause mitigation.
Try to think of something that might actually make a difference if you want more laws but first it would help if you learn the basics.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 6:55 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 980 by ringo, posted 06-08-2022 11:59 AM jar has replied

  
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