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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 932 of 1184 (895007)
06-05-2022 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 930 by AZPaul3
06-05-2022 4:17 PM


Re: Biden's speech
There are too many guns in this society and they need to be curbed hard.
Pass laws and they will vanish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2022 4:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 933 by xongsmith, posted 06-06-2022 12:52 AM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 934 by AZPaul3, posted 06-06-2022 1:15 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 933 of 1184 (895008)
06-06-2022 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 932 by marc9000
06-05-2022 8:30 PM


Re: Biden's speech
marc9K asks about guns:
Pass laws and they will vanish?
No, of course not. But enough to get some significant Harm Reduction.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 8:30 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 934 of 1184 (895010)
06-06-2022 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 932 by marc9000
06-05-2022 8:30 PM


Re: Biden's speech
What if we went house-to-house confiscating all guns, would that be to your liking?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 8:30 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 935 of 1184 (895013)
06-06-2022 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by marc9000
06-05-2022 8:28 PM


Re: Biden's speech
marc writes:
In plane crashes, bus crashes, weather disasters, Andrew Cuomo's nursing home deaths, many other things, often with far more than 21 deaths, mainstream evening news reports don't continue to harp on it for weeks after the event, showing pictures of victims, interviews with survivors, videos of funerals, lists of dreams the dead victims had, political demands to grow the government.
I don't accept your premise. When an airplane crashes killing people it's all over the news across the world for at least the day it happens and in the country it happens in it will go on longer with tearful interviews and 'hearts, prayers and minds' statements etc. from politicians.
If it happens again a few weeks later, then again and again and again. You think it wouldn't be in the news?
​
Every fucking excuse…. Look at the rest of the world, it doesn't have this problem. The difference is the guns.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 936 of 1184 (895018)
06-06-2022 7:07 AM


Where are all the good guys with guns?
Mass shootings continued at a high rate this weekend. "At least 12 dead in another weekend of mass shootings across America", says the headline. A short excerpt:
quote
The most notable violence this weekend took place in Philadelphia...and Chattanooga, Tennessee,...
...
Other attacks included:
In Clarendon County, South Carolina, a late Saturday graduation party...
...
In Saginaw, Michigan, early Sunday...
...
In Mesa, Arizona, early Sunday...
...
In Bibb County, Georgia, Saturday night,...
...
In Phoenix, Arizona, early Saturday,...
There are about 400 millions guns in America. We have more guns per person than any other country in the world. If guns make us safer, why are we the murder capital of the civilized world? Where are all the good guys with guns who are supposed to stop this violence?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 937 by jar, posted 06-06-2022 8:03 AM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 937 of 1184 (895019)
06-06-2022 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 936 by Percy
06-06-2022 7:07 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
The good guys with guns are obeying the laws and working very hard to promote actually addressing root causes rather than stupid stuff like more utterly dumb gun laws.
The problem is complicated.
First, there is no reasonable way to get rid of guns in the US in anything short of a few centuries.
Second, it took at least a half century for the US to get this fucked up and it will take at least that long to fix things.
The root causes of violence are what needs to be addressed.
AbE: what can be done as a start but only a start.
The solution is the same that it has always been.
What can be done is simple.
First, get rid of all of the mega-schools, put schools back in the neighborhood and small enough that every teacher knows every student by name and no class has more than a dozen kids. But that means no big football stadium. And smaller classes mean more teachers and that means higher taxes.
Second, start active discipline at the earliest stages. If a child is a bully or disruptive then the child gets sent home and provided true counseling. But there is no one at home and both parents (when there is two parents) are working and won't get paid so can't come home.
Third federalize drugs and provide them for free in neighborhood health clinics. But the WAR on DRUGS!
Fourth enact universal health care. But if that happens the drug companies will all stop researching cures. After all no other country makes medicines.
Fifth stop glorifying violence and shooting. But John Wick and Reacher...
Sixth, bring back shooting sports in the middle and upper grades. What, teach kids to shoot?
Seventh, support unionization and narrowing the gap between rich and poor. Make a two income family a choice rather than necessity. But that's SOCIALISM!
And understand that it took about fifty years to screw stuff up this much so it will take another half century or more to fix it.

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 936 by Percy, posted 06-06-2022 7:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 940 by ringo, posted 06-06-2022 11:57 AM jar has replied
 Message 942 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2022 12:50 AM jar has replied
 Message 1004 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 9:45 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 938 of 1184 (895020)
06-06-2022 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 928 by marc9000
06-05-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Biden's speech
marc9000 writes:
All of the recent shootings today are COPYCAT shootings.
Oh, come on, Marc. All? Why are you minimizing the problem? I bet at least 150% of mass shootings are copycat. I mean, they all use guns. They all murder innocent people. Where's the originality in that?
If news was only reported, and not sensationalized, there would be far fewer senseless mass shootings.
If it's the media's fault then we should be thankful that the mass murders are coming so fast and furious. This gives the media too little time to report and sensationalize each one. Just as a media team takes off for Philadelphia to sensationalize a mass murder there another happens in Chattanooga, so they divert there, and then another happens in Saginaw, Michigan, so they divert there, and in the end they never get anywhere, just fly around in the sky. Let us thank God for enough mass murders that before the media can properly sensationalize one mass murder another happens.
​
It's often said that the U.S. founders couldn't imagine any weapon beyond the muskets of their day. That's true, but they also couldn't imagine the circus that's today's news media.
They couldn't imagine the technology, but of course they could imagine a media like today's, even much worse, because they already had a media like ours. In fact, more newspapers and pamphlets were extremely vicious back then, with more Alex Jones and Glenn Beck equivalents.
Who can tell what goes on the minds of mass shooters,...
Who can tell what goes on the minds of mass shooters? You, obviously. You just told us they're all copycats.
...but it can't hurt their ego when the news media points fingers at others besides the shooter,
"The teacher left a door unlocked!!!! The police didn't respond correctly!!! The school wasn't fortified enough!!! The public has too many guns!!!!"
Except for people sounding the alarm about guns, those are all conservative excuses for why guns are not the problem. It's everybody else's fault. For some, like you, it's the media's fault, but you blame everything on the media. For others it's that there wasn't enough security. For others there were failures of procedure. Some think it's a mental health issues. Others think we need more red flag laws. Some blame American culture. But guns? Few conservatives blame the guns. They like guns, so they can't blame them.
​
Biden delights in saying over and over that the second amendment is not absolute, another Democrat politician recently said the Supreme Courts has stated many times that the second amendment is not absolute.
No, the second amendment is not absolute (though it was misinterpreted by the Supreme Court in DC vs. Heller case). Justice Scalia wrote, "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited." Gun control passes muster.
I wonder if the Supreme Court has ever said anything similar about the First Amendment?
The Supreme Court has said plenty about the First Amendment right to free speech. For example, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater (incitement). You can't defame people, as Deep vs. Heard recently demonstrated. You can't use fighting words or make threats (incitement again).
The government's determination to continue the Vietnam war was doomed once the media began focusing attention on what was really happening in Vietnam. Now the media is focusing attention on what is really happening with guns, and you, liking guns, are understandably unhappy about it.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 928 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 3:27 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 948 by marc9000, posted 06-07-2022 12:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 939 of 1184 (895021)
06-06-2022 8:57 AM


Common Sense From a Gun Guy
Notice I call him a gun guy, not a gun nut, because a gun nut he definitely is not. In a recent CNN opinion piece, Opinion: Here's the reason people tell me they want to buy an AR-15. And it's simply ludicrous | CNN, former officer Michael Fanone gives his opinion about semi-automatic weapons like the AR-15.
Fanone owns an AR-15 because he was issued one as a police officer, and wanting to become more familiar with the weapon and not being permitted to take it home, he purchased one. He writes that the AR-15 is not appropriate for home defense.
quote
I've sold guns at big box retailers and I've also sold firearms at a small retail gun store. Some gun buyers have been misled into thinking that the AR-15 is somehow practical for self-defense. But frankly, it's the last gun that I would recommend for that purpose.
He contrasts the power and accuracy of an AR-15 with a standard police issue 9 mm pistol:
quote
A person wielding an AR-15 has a range beyond 300 yards. For an officer armed with a 9 mm pistol, hitting a target beyond 50 yards is going to be difficult, even for the most accomplished marksman. A bullet fired by an AR-15 travels at three times the velocity as one fired by a 9 mm handgun. And magazines that can feed dozens of rounds into the weapon in the space of minutes clearly were meant for use only on the battlefield.
There are a couple solutions that he likes. One is banning such weapons:
quote
Banning these powerful weapons from the civilian marketplace is a no-brainer, as are universal background checks. Neither move is going to solve all the gun problems that we have, but it would be a start.
And outlawing these AR-15s would not require confiscating them from people who already have them. Once you've made these weapons illegal, anyone found with one would be subject to arrest, since possession of these weapons would be a crime. I think it's likely that you would see a lot of people opting to turn them in.
But he has another solution he likes, one I haven't myself heard before, but it involves reclassifying semiautomatic weapons as class 3. I don't know that this is possible since class 3 is for fully automatic actions, i.e., machine guns, but here's what he has to say:
quote
If banning them outright seems like too extreme a solution to be politically palatable, here's another option: Reclassify semi-automatic rifles as Class 3 firearms.
That would mean that someone wanting to purchase an AR-15 would have to go through a background check, fingerprinting and review by an official from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives -- a process that takes anywhere from 12 to 16 months. And since Class 3 weapons can't be purchased by anyone younger than 21, it would solve the issue of emotionally unstable 18-year-olds buying them.
A Class 3 firearm reclassification would also make those who are approved to purchase these weapons subject to an annual check that they are complying with federal regulations regarding secure storage of the firearm, and to confirm their licensing and other paperwork is up to date. All of these hoops and hurdles are sure to reduce the civilian demand for these weapons.
He concludes on a cautionary note about how dangerous these weapons really are:
quote
I can't overstate how dangerous it is to have semi-automatic weapons like the AR-15 in the hands of civilians. Our public officials have it within their power to help make it harder for people who shouldn't have these weapons to get them.
A police officer should never have to worry about being outgunned by the bad guy they're protecting the public against.
--Percy

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 940 of 1184 (895034)
06-06-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by jar
06-06-2022 8:03 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
The good guys with guns are obeying the laws....
Don't all guns start out legal? Aren't they all purchased legally from the factory?
So how do they magically get into the hands of bad guys?
It seems to me that the obvious answer is: At some point, the "responsible" gun owners are not all that responsible.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by jar, posted 06-06-2022 8:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-06-2022 5:56 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 941 of 1184 (895049)
06-06-2022 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 940 by ringo
06-06-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Ringo writes:
jar writes:
The good guys with guns are obeying the laws....
Don't all guns start out legal? Aren't they all purchased legally from the factory?
Ghost guns are never legal.
One thing I have noticed here in Oregon as well as elsewhere around the country are sheriffs and police chiefs publicly stating that they will not enforce any gun laws they personally disagree with. We voted against the asshole sheriff in our county for that very reason, and we will vote against every single law enforcement tax levy as long as those shitheads are in office!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 942 of 1184 (895056)
06-07-2022 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by jar
06-06-2022 8:03 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
First, there is no reasonable way to get rid of guns in the US in anything short of a few centuries.
Best make a start on it then, eh?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by jar, posted 06-06-2022 8:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 943 of 1184 (895057)
06-07-2022 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by ringo
06-06-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
They don't magically get in the had of bad guys just like cars don't magically get in the hands of drunk drivers.
The issues are very similar. People do stupid things.
People when under stress do lots of stupid things.
The issue is violence in America.
What needs to be addressed are the root causes of so many US problems.
Sure, reasonable laws will help. A reasonable and universal Red Flag law would be a big help but it too is nearly impossible in today's fucked up litigious US society. We have never funded mental health just as we have never funded health services or education or a whole host of other things.
There really are Big Problems right here in River City.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by ringo, posted 06-06-2022 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 949 by ringo, posted 06-07-2022 12:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 944 of 1184 (895058)
06-07-2022 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Tanypteryx
06-06-2022 5:56 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Exactly.
We created this mess.
And as long as the local voters keep electing assholes nothing will change.
A law that is not enforced or a law that is unenforceable is just stupid.
But you are wrong about Ghost Guns.
Ghost Guns are guns without a serial number.
Well, up until 1968 serial numbers were not required on any US manufactured guns. Some manufactures had long added serial numbers bu not all manufacturers and some manufacturers had serial numbers on some of their gun models but not all of their models.
Even today, the law only states that commercial businesses that mass produce firearms must add serial numbers. As is so often the case other nations have been way ahead of the US when it comes to serial numbers. In many countries not only was the firearm serialized but in addition the key components like the barrels and slide in and semi-automatic will carry matching identification stamps. In revolvers the frame would have a serial number and the cylinder also matching identifications.
Ghost guns are certainly legal today.
BUT... just for fun. The manufacturers even today are not required to create a permanent record of the serial numbers and in fact have often issued the same serial number to different models. Colt is a great example. They have a website where you can look up a gun by the serial number (at least they did, Now that CZ owns Colt things may change.) When you look up a serial number you often find that a given serial number was used on several different models made in several different years.

Edited by jar, .


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-06-2022 5:56 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 945 of 1184 (895062)
06-07-2022 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Tanypteryx
06-06-2022 5:56 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
But the GQP ammosexuals want to make ghost guns legal.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-06-2022 5:56 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 946 of 1184 (895063)
06-07-2022 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 942 by Tangle
06-07-2022 12:50 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
So how do you go about making such a start?
What is the model, method, process, procedure or mechanism that might work?
Let me point at a couple examples.
We have two neighboring countries. Both have very similar guns laws and in fact Mexico has gone as far that there is only one gun store in the whole country.
But violence in the two nations is quite different.
What is different is the social structure.
A big factor is, just as it is in the US, the really high cost AND profit in illicit drugs.
What if the US simply Nationalized all illicit drugs, took over manufacture of the illicit drugs and made them available free through a system of neighborhood health clinics? The US could redirect all the money spent nationally and locally in the war on drugs to pay for the production, distribution and health care system.
Sounds good, BUT guess who would be the biggest opponents of such a system?
If you said the police you'd likely win a prize.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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