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Author Topic:   The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 136 of 244 (888442)
09-18-2021 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Christian7
09-18-2021 7:07 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
You still have to prove that my premises are false.
I’ve given good reasons to think that they are false. You haven’t given a good reason to think that they are true.
quote:
But it is limited by logic. Therefore, a non-physical reality limits the universe. Logic is not a physical thing.
Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:07 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:38 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 137 of 244 (888443)
09-18-2021 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Christian7
09-18-2021 7:11 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
No, I said that, the universe cannot obey the laws of meaning and logic without the existence of a mind.
I don’t think that a different phrasing of essentially the same statement is a very important issue.
But what is important is that you provide some reason to think that your assertion is true - because it seems to be obviously false.
quote:
God does not have to obey the laws of logic. Therefore this does not apply to Him.
So God doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s fine, it just makes your argument even more nonsensical. But that is hardly my problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:11 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 138 of 244 (888444)
09-18-2021 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
09-18-2021 2:26 AM


quote:
Is there a reason that you think that the universe is under any obligation to make sense to us?
The universe makes more sense to us today than it did 500 years ago. Does this mean that it violated the laws of meaning and logic more then than now? Do we have to understand everything about the universe for it to exist?
The universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it. But for this to be true, that mind must exist. For if the universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it, it must make sense according to meaning and logic, which, it cannot, if there is no mind to whom it must make sense.
quote:
The universe had no minds in it at all until we came along a few hundred thousand years ago but it seemed to get along just fine.
Is qualia a part of the physical universe? If the universe is purely physical, what are minds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2021 2:26 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 2:37 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 139 of 244 (888445)
09-18-2021 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:17 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
If it is the truth of the premise that makes the conclusion true, then the universe must conform to what our symbolic manipulation tells us; and if this is the case, then what it tells us actually limits the universe. Otherwise, our logic merely reflects the universe. But a mere reflection is not that to which what it reflects conforms. If therefore, the universe does not conform to it, then it is able to violate it.
quote:
Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
That which conforms by necessity to a thing is limited by it. Otherwise it need not conform to it. For without a limit is no force of obligation.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:47 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 140 of 244 (888446)
09-18-2021 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:23 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
So God doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s fine, it just makes your argument even more nonsensical. But that is hardly my problem.
Why shouldn't God make sense? Just because God does not have to obey the laws of logic doesn't mean He makes no sense at all, but we cannot fully understand Him, because we cannot conceive of things which violate logic. We cannot fully conceive of Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:52 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 141 of 244 (888447)
09-18-2021 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Christian7
09-18-2021 7:38 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
If it is the truth of the premise that makes the conclusion true, then the universe must conform to what our symbolic manipulation tells us; and if this is the case, then what it tells us actually limits the universe.
Obviously false. Since logical truths are tautologous, our symbolic manipulations control nothing, they only let us work out what is independently true. So logic imposes no limitations at all. The conclusion is true regardless of logic.
Equally this shows that the presence of an observer is unnecessary. A tautology will be true regardless of the presence of a mind to identify it as being true,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:38 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:51 AM PaulK has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 142 of 244 (888448)
09-18-2021 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:47 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Obviously false. Since logical truths are tautologous, our symbolic manipulations control nothing, they only let us work out what is independently true. So logic imposes no limitations at all. The conclusion is true regardless of logic.
Equally this shows that the presence of an observer is unnecessary. A tautology will be true regardless of the presence of a mind to identify it as being true,
Why must they be true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM Christian7 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 143 of 244 (888449)
09-18-2021 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Christian7
09-18-2021 7:46 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Why shouldn't God make sense?
I didn’t say that God didn’t make sense - I just pointed out that was what you were claiming.
quote:
Just because God does not have to obey the laws of logic doesn't mean He makes no sense at al
So you are now claiming that things that “violate the laws of meaning and logic” can make sense. OK. Since you now assert that your syllogism is unsound you’d better stop using it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:46 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 144 of 244 (888450)
09-18-2021 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Christian7
09-18-2021 7:51 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Why must they be true?
Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 7:51 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 8:11 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 146 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 8:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 145 of 244 (888451)
09-18-2021 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:54 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 09-18-2021 8:15 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 148 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 8:18 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 146 of 244 (888452)
09-18-2021 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:54 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
But why does the universe have to be such that our logic, which does not allow everything, proves what it true about the universe, the universe being limited, even as the rules of logic demonstrate this limit?
There is a correlation between the limits of the universe and the limits of what logic permits.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 8:20 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 244 (888453)
09-18-2021 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Christian7
09-18-2021 8:11 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
Guido writes:
True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound?
Often false. Often true. More often unknown.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 8:11 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 148 of 244 (888454)
09-18-2021 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Christian7
09-18-2021 8:11 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound?
I’ll work harder at getting you to understand rather than leave you caught in the traps of your assumptions.
True or false: if something is true, it’s true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 8:11 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 149 of 244 (888455)
09-18-2021 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Christian7
09-18-2021 8:14 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
But why does the universe have to be such that our logic, which does not allow everything, proves what it true about the universe, the universe being limited, even as the rules of logic demonstrate this limit?
Because what is true, is true. Is that really so hard to understand?
quote:
There is a correlation between the limits of the universe and the limits of what logic permits.
I have yet to see any meaningful limit imposed by logic in the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 8:14 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 150 of 244 (888456)
09-18-2021 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Christian7
09-16-2021 6:18 PM


Re: Paul Steinhardt on Dark Energy.
Christian7 writes:
The virtual particles do that, because something caused them to appear. They did not pop into reality of their own accord. They cannot come into reality of their own accord, without before hand existing. Nothing can act that does not exist. To begin to exist is to act.
There is no evidence of any cause of virtual particles or of the time of nuclear decay or of what state an entangled particle will take up once observed.
Why are you offering useless evidence-free declarations of what you wish were true? It appears that you claim everything has a cause simply because you think it supports other things you believe true without evidence, so you simple declare, over and over again without support or rationale, that everything has a cause.
Everything does not have a cause, so far as we can tell.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Christian7, posted 09-16-2021 6:18 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 10:06 AM Percy has replied

  
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