Actually God calls on "heaven and earth" as His witnesses against His errant people in the first chapter of Isaiah, which is probably a clue to the possibility that His own angels understand His judgments and act as a sort of jury. Besides, God spelled out His law to the Israelites, including blessings and punishments for obedience or disobedience, and it is to be our guide too, so we can't say we don't know what is required of us.
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
In any case it is our own consciences that will judge us in the end, when everything will be laid bare; though now our consciences may be corrupted.
If you judge God as morally inferior to you, you aren't a Christian.
What you post and what your cult markets is exactly the opposite of thinking, critically or otherwise
It is critical thinking that tells me that God is omniscient and I am not and that I am to trust Him and that those who put themselves above Him are in deep trouble.
God tells us to test Him in His promises to us, that's not judging God as you do. If you are a Christian -- I'm not sure where God draws the line -- you are far from everything I've been taught as a Christian about God's character and attributes.
I gave OT examples of God's warning people of judgment to come. You are getting all semantic about the term "innocent" to no good purpose. If we're all sinners then the concept of innocence is at least relative or it stands for those who trust God although they are sinners.
You keep saying I treat other things the way I treat the Bible but you haven't given a single example.
Yeah, I find a lot of evidence in the films I've mentioned. Every day I'm trying to make use of what I've learned.
I don't really know how to respond to that, other than resorting to an outbreak of Rrhain-esque blinking. Do you seriously doubt that a low-fat calorie controlled diet can improve health?
I said "radically." That kind of diet, just removing fat and calories, may prevent some conditions from occurring, but the plant-based diet supposedly brings about noticeable improvements in health: greater energy, clearing up of many small maladies.
It seems that when internet videos tell you something, you believe it wholeheartedly, but when actual doctors are involved, you refuse to believe even the most obvious facts.
Most of the video experts are MDs who have made a thorough study of nutrition, which MDs in general don't get, though you and others keep trying to say they do. They get a pathetic minimum of nutrition education and often based on information that gets discredited in a year or two. Witness the everchanging nutritional "pyramids."
And I DON'T take everything on the videos as gospel truth, I take them as pointing in the right direction.
I do not take anything I've presented on this thread as totally without flaws or to be trusted completely. I don't take any one expert's opinion as ironclad, that's why I've mentioned many different names. Some of the diets are too extreme in one way or another. I'm trying to find basic elements that work for me personally at the moment. I don't trust standard medicine except in a very limited way, and certainly not on nutrition. I try to avoid pills except when there is no way to do without them, and yes sometimes we sorely need what doctors prescribe, we just don't need EVERYTHING they prescribe. I want a diet that can really produce health if that is possible. The standard diet doesn't.
Analysis by minimal lumen diameter of 25 lesions fotind that 6 regressed, 14 remained stable, and 5 progressed.
Isn't it rather amazing that ANY got better? And most at least didn't get worse. I didn't think you could reverse plaque buildup at all but apparently it is possible.
Improvements over twelve years would not be the result of that sort of surgery in people whose diet was unchanged, or even when the diet was minimally modified.
He didn't bother to include a control group, so how can we know?
I thought it was pretty standard knowledge that if the diet isn't radically changed the plaque will just go on building up even after bypass surgery.
Yes, because that's the aim of all this dietary treatment and in case after case you see them getting off their meds as the diet frees them of the need for them. It just wasn't specifically mentioned for this experiment.
It wasn't mentioned because it's not true. It's just some silliness you made up for yourself.
The man who was seen by Lederman in "Forks over Knives" got off most of his meds. So did a couple of people in the film "Wht the Health" and another, though I can't remember which at the moment. Getting off meds is pretty standard for people really doing the plant-based diet. What would be the point otherwise? If the diet really doesn't work why bother?
Yes it wasn't a very good study, (though to be fair he didn't even really present it as a study, he just wanted to try out his diet on a group of people with severe heart disease and as I got it he rather casually asked the other doctors to send him their worst for the trial) and I'd still like to see a better version of it done with a less extreme diet. I'm still only about half way into going all plant-based and have found it's possible to really enjoy this food, it just takes some experimenting.
ABE: And by the way, if the standard doctor-prescribed diet changes hadn't already helped these people doesn't that show the inadequacy of that diet? Or even the fact that doctors really don't know much about nutrition? Esselstyn wanted to try something far more radical. The group he was sent had had 48 heart events among them in the previous eight years, nothing said about dietary changes with their usual doctors.
Amazingly I actually agree with PaulK about this, Phat. I've understood that if your blood sugar is at the level where they prescribe insulin it is very serious, and important to keep it controlled with the insulin. If your diet does bring down your blood sugar level THEN you can start getting off the insulin.
HERE'S a page about the new gizmo called the tower garden, that grows fruits and vegetables "aeroponically" in a vertical space. People even have them in their living rooms, but a patio or balcony is better. Better yet is some yard space of course, but we do what we can however we can and figure if it's a good idea it will grow on people over time.
I keep looking for the perfect short presentation of Annette Larkins and her garden but haven't been able to find one, so here's unfortunately a very long one that nobody will watch, but it starts out showing her garden. The guy talks way too much so it's slow going too. Oh well. He interviews her midway in the film.
She started slowly changing her whole lifestyle 44 years ago and filling her yard with growing foods was part of that. She is now a raw vegan who gets most of her food from the garden. She's 74 in this video, last year I think, so whatever she's doing is clearly very good for her.
Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
I just ran across this, never heard of it before. Microgreens gardening inside your house. There's already a lot more human ingenuity at work on this problem than I had any idea.
Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
The point of watching two minutes of the video is that the meaning of the headlines would change.
Of course it's a starting point, why would you think anything else? All this stuff is pretty new, new to me for starters. The videos might inspire people to get deeper into it all.
However, what would you expect to be convinced of anyway? One of them is about a woman in Florida who looks half her age living on a raw vegan diet most of which she grows in her own yard. The other is about a man in Baltimore who started growing microgreens in his house for his own consumption and then took over a whole bedroom to grow enough to sell to his neighbors.
Hey Phat. I'm mostly trying to get some inspiration and a feel for all the possibilities by watching the videos, and I like a lot of the plant-based diets but I don't think I would ever be completely vegan let alone raw vegan. Annette Larkins is very impressive, however, and I've watched some of her meal prep videos. I'm going to try one as soon as I get all the ingredients on hand.
It's arthritis that keeps me from being active though, not lack of energy -- I have to use a walker. Barring a miracle, I have no illusions I'll be starting a garden in this life. And they say it can take a couple of years to get a vegan diet going. I'm not sure it's lack of motivation as much as that it's simply hard to give up habits to switch to a completely new way of eating -- and finding out what are the best foods among all the possibilities. I just try this and that and keep trying things, and try to get off some old habits I know aren't good for me, but that's very hard, I have to find other things to take their place or it just isn't going to work.
Phat, I don't eat sugar, maybe a dark chocolate bar once in a while because it's on the anti-Alzheimer's list. But otherwise I haven't had any sugar or white flour or things made from them in many many years. I'm also up on the good fats like salmon and avocadoes. I only started eating potatoes a few months ago as part of going plant-based, because at least one doctor recommends a high starch basis for his version of the diet, but the point is that potatoes can't be blamed for a lack of energy that I've had for years. My problem is my addiction to cream and butter. Seems I can't do without them at the moment. I've incorporated a lot of the star plant foods into my habits already, such as the berries, they make a terrific smoothie that is a vehicle for some other nutrients, but I can 't make myself do it with almond milk, half and half is the lowest fat cream that still makes this wonderful frozen drink. I know, terribly self-indulgent of me, but that's the main problem.
I'm also quite aware of the inflammation problem, which seems to be behind most chronic diseases. I may eventually have to give up the potatoes too, but getting enough calories on a plant-based diet seems to require some kind of starchy food. Not that I'm lacking calories at this stage thanks to my cream and butter habit.
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