|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: YECism: sect or cult? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Phat writes: My conclusion is that creationism lacks the evidence that is needed to convince mainstream science. It's really hard not to say 'no shit Sherlock' to this but I can see that you're being sincere. Mainstream science rejected creationism over 100 years ago. That simply a fact. It was fatally injured by geology and despatched by biology and astronomy. Ever since, every single piece of evidence has confirmed an old earth and an evolution of species. It's simply not discussed in science anymore, if you inhabit a religious world in the US and read creation arguments you may think that there's still an argument to be had, but there isn't. Outside the tiny US creationist bubble there is NO argument at all. It's proven beyond human means of detection that the earth is old and that the bible stories are mostly fiction.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I think that in this topic we should stick to the replicable evidence. A Global Flood or the absence thereof is easier to prove/disprove than God in human flesh. The latter has no objective evidence. In addition, YEC purports to be scientific...though you have a point that the origins are in fact religious.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
It might be easier to come to an answer which can be strongly supported by the empirical evidence - but we already know that answer. An old Earth, no global Flood, evolution.
YEC is simply not viable as science. To a sincere YEC the theology is primary - and if they don't have a solid case there, then their whole position becomes far less tenable. We can keep it to a (broad) Christian context - I don't see any point in arguing about the Incarnation for the purpose of the topic. The position of YEC within Christianity is far more important.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
YEC purports to be scientific...though you have a point that the origins are in fact religious. There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Where is the religion in any of that? There is none.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
|
quote: If we're very generous that might start with Judges, but even that includes legends. But in fact, YEC is mostly based in parts of the Bible that are myth, not history. Indeed, even the "creation" of "creationism" refers to a miraculous creation. Taking myth literally seems to be pretty religious to me.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Where is the religion in any of that? There is none. Short of religious myth there is no way scientists or anyone else would ever come up with the idea of a young earth. The evidence simply does not lead to that explanation. Creationists have to contort and misrepresent some of the evidence, ignore the rest of the evidence, and make up their own evidence in order to have "evidence" to support a YEC position.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Of course the creation of the universe was a miraculous event but what was created follows natural laws. None of it's myth anyway, it's all factually true history.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Short of religious myth there is no way scientists or anyone else would ever come up with the idea of a young earth. The evidence simply does not lead to that explanation. It isn't religious myth, it's factual history. As for whether science would have come up with the young earth I don't know, but since human intellect is fallen there's no reason why it should. God gave us the Bible because without it we are groping in the dark about all kinds of things.
Creationists have to contort and misrepresent some of the evidence, ignore the rest of the evidence, and make up their own evidence in order to have "evidence" to support a YEC position. I haven't contorted anything in this discussion. The evidence is there for the young earth in everything I've said, as well as evidence that the Geological Time Scale is utterly false.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: You're forgetting about the creation of the various "kinds" of life.
quote: And the basis of that claim is ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, ... Correction: claimed to be historical, as part of the religious belief. From the Urban Dictionary I found several definitions of cult that are appropriate for this thread:
quote: Yep that pretty well defines YECism. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
YEC is based on the parts of the Bible that are factually historical even though there are lots of unbelievers who refuse to accept that fact. We know it's factual, we know the Flood actually occurred in history, and that's because we know God inspired the Bible. Unbelievers can carry on all they like, we know it's the truth and it's the basis for the scientific thinking of YEC.
YEC is based on standard orthodox Protestant theology, there is nothing cultish about it, it's simple Christianity. There's no point in bickering about these things. We aren't giving in and you aren't giving in. The Bible is our foundation, it's the truth, the parts YEC is based on are factual history, and we aren't giving it up no matter how much silly debunkery you throw at it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
|
quote: In other words your belief in the historicity of those sections is just a religious belief (and one founded in dubious theology) You really ought to learn to think things through instead of these knee jerk objections.
quote: Or to be more accurate the falsehood of those myths - when taken literally - is the reason for the anti-scientific thinking of YEC.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Faith writes:
That's practically the definition of religion right there.
Unbelievers can carry on all they like, we know it's the truth....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
YEC is based on the belief that parts of the Bible There fixed it for you. Claiming these beliefs are actual fact is only confirmation of the cult mindset of YECies. If it were fact there would be all kinds of evidence that just does not exist. For instance, IF there were a world wide catastrophic flood, THEN there would be AT LEAST ONE (1) world wide continuous layer of the same type of sedimentary deposit. There isn't. Even your rather pathetic attempts to shoe-horn actual evidence of old age and long term geological processes into an imaginary young world do not work, do not convince anyone not a YECie. As you keep finding out whenever you attempt to present your falsified concepts in the other threads.
YEC is based on standard orthodox Protestant theology, there is nothing cultish about it, it's simple Christianity. Except that there are other standard orthodox Protestant sects that do not agree with a young earth and an actual flood. And Protestants are not the only Christians, there are many flavors of Christianity. That make YECism an extremist subsect of Christianity as a whole, like the Branch Davidians. The main leaders are shysters (Ken Ham especially, building amusement parks to scam the gullible). YECism fits the definitions for cults. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : world wide layer of sedimentby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
|
Faith writes: I disagree for two reasons. First, I have yet to see evidence that the Bible has a valid historical account. Do we have evidence for historical validity or is there a disagreement regarding that? There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Also if YEC is not religious, why is there a disagreement concerning the interpretation of evidence? If evidence was so scientifically cut and dried, why does science disagree with creation science?
Faith writes: If it is factually true history, why is there not a consensus? What are the sticking points that prevent mainstream science from accepting creation science? Of course the creation of the universe was a miraculous event but what was created follows natural laws. None of it's myth anyway, it's all factually true history.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024