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Author | Topic: Punctuated Equilibria: The Basics | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member (Idle past 143 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
CRR writes: I don't think that CRR wrote the truth about that here.
The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, saltations...
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Taq Member Posts: 10229 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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CRR writes: The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, saltations. quote: PE explains gaps between species in the fossil record, but it doesn't use saltation to explain it. A gap in the fossil record is a gap in the fossil record, not a gap in the actual evolutionary history of the species.
If you think you can see a fossil series showing many small steps then punk eek does not apply to that example. That would also be false. Gould and Eldredge pointed to several instances where there was rapid evolution in the fossil record, complete with transitional fossils between species:
quote: They were able to find positive evidence of allopatric speciation with transitional fossils between species, and then evidence of that new species replacing the less derived parent population. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4574 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Taq writes: PE explains gaps between species in the fossil record, but it doesn't use saltation to explain it. A gap in the fossil record is a gap in the fossil record, not a gap in the actual evolutionary history of the species. This gets right to the heart of the matter. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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CRR Member (Idle past 2410 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
More correctly I should have said "The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, seeming saltations.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1573 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and again
"The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps what are "large morphological gaps?"
Message 15: ... developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, ... What is a "large morphological gap?"
Message 9: ... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ... What is "large scale change?" In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs). So what is "large scale change?" So what is a "large morphological gap?" So, again, what is a "large morphological gap?" Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10229 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
CRR writes: More correctly I should have said "The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, seeming saltations. That is false. PE was used to explain rapid evolution between species, followed by longer periods of stasis. The gap between species is not a large morphological gap.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2410 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
The idea of Punk Eek is that the evolution takes place "off stage" where it isn't recorded in the fossil record so that when it later reappears there is a large change, an apparent saltation. The evolution that takes place "off stage" is assumed to follow normal Darwinian processes.
quote:Note that evolution can potentially take place more quickly in a small population because the average time for a change to reach fixity is correspondingly smaller. On the other hand the smaller population has less chance of producing a favourable mutation.
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Taq Member Posts: 10229 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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CRR writes: The idea of Punk Eek is that the evolution takes place "off stage" where it isn't recorded in the fossil record . . . Gould and Eldredge cited two examples of PE being recorded in the fossil record: "PE sometimes is claimed to be a theory resting upon the lack of evidence rather than upon evidence. This is a curious, but false claim, since Eldredge and Gould spent a significant portion of their original work examining two separate lines of evidence (one involving pulmonate gastropods, the other one involving Phacopsid trilobites) demonstrating the issues behind PE (1972). Similarly, discussion of actual paleontological evidence consumes a significant proportion of pages in Gould and Eldredge 1977. This also answers those who claimed that E&G said that PE was unverifiable."Punctuated Equilibria The gap between species is not a large morphological gaps. On top of that, Gould has stated that there are plenty of transitional fossils filling those gaps: "Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationistswhether through design or stupidity, I do not knowas admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
The evolution that takes place "off stage" is assumed to follow normal Darwinian processes. That is false. The observation of a nested hierarchy demonstrates that the processes were Darwinian. It isn't assumed.
Note that evolution can potentially take place more quickly in a small population because the average time for a change to reach fixity is correspondingly smaller. On the other hand the smaller population has less chance of producing a favourable mutation. Selection is often stronger at the edges of a species range meaning that mutations which are only slightly beneficial in the center of the species range can be much more strongly beneficial at the edges of the range. There is also the possibility that a neutral or even slightly deleterious mutation in the main population can be beneficial at the edges of the species range. Therefore, the subpopulation may already have the beneficial mutations it needs in low numbers.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2410 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
The idea of Punk Eek is that the evolution takes place "off stage" where it isn't recorded in the fossil record so that when it later reappears there is a large change, an apparent saltation. The evolution that takes place "off stage" is assumed to follow normal Darwinian processes. Using Punctuated Equilibria as a referencePE essential features are peripatric speciation in a geographically limited region and stratigraphically limited extent such that sampling of the fossil record will reveal a pattern of most species in stasis, with abrupt appearance of newly derived species being a consequence of ecological succession and dispersion. While Eldredge and Gould acknowledge that geological processes contribute to the "gappiness" of the fossil record, they also assert that PE is by far the more important consideration in that regard. Or in other words evolution takes place "off stage" where it isn't recorded in the fossil record so that when it later reappears there is a large change, an apparent saltation. The evolution that takes place "off stage" is assumed to follow normal Darwinian processes.
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Taq Member Posts: 10229 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
CRR writes: Or in other words evolution takes place "off stage" where it isn't recorded in the fossil record so that when it later reappears there is a large change, an apparent saltation. The evolution that takes place "off stage" is assumed to follow normal Darwinian processes. They also cited instances where rapid peripatric speciation was recorded in the fossil record. Also, it isn't assumed to be a Darwinian process. We observe that the end result is a nested hierarchy which is evidence that it was a Darwinian process.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
Athesits try and explain all those inconvenient gaps with their hypothetical (ie, imaginary) PE. But what is revealed by the fossil record is a very nice fit for another hypothesis - progressive creation (over millions of years). The sooner Christians dump their stupid theistic evolution, the better. Any Christianity based on an atheist fantasy is bound to be an embarrassing failure.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10229 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Dredge writes: Athesits try and explain all those inconvenient gaps with their hypothetical (ie, imaginary) PE. Gould and Eldredge pointed to several places in the fossil record where PE was captured without gaps. Perhaps you should read the actual paper: http://www.sciacchitano.it/...d%20puctuated%20equilibria.pdf Start at the bottom of pg. 99. They were able to show an evolving population of snails with intermediates that evolved in one place. As other species of snail died out in other regions the evolving snail species from one region moved in and took over those territories. The fossil record in these areas showed an abrupt change in species, but this due to migration of the species that evolved in a different region. PE isn't imaginary. It is very real.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined:
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PE is magic masquerading as science.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4574 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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How sad, an idiot masquerading as a troll.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1612 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Welcome back dredgie. I agree that PE is magic masquerading as science. I don't know where you get the notion of a Christian Progressive Creation, looks to me like a one-time thing in scripture, but Punctuated Equilibrium is a laughable delusion. It's based on the Big Delusion of course, the idea that the fossil record is to be read as evolution over time, but of course if it's nothing but the record of what died in the Flood that's ridiculous. It's really amusing to see what is nothing but an accidental collection of dead things treated as showing an evolving population, complete with wonderfully imaginative scenarios of how this population moved into that area and another joined up with it and so on and so forth. The historical sciences bring out the creative thinking, that's for sure..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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