|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total) |
| |
harveyspecter | |
Total: 895,060 Year: 6,172/6,534 Month: 365/650 Week: 135/278 Day: 3/30 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1557 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
quote: Edited by CRR, : Link added
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 20957 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
This is just a bunch of weasel words. If a mutation causes a new allele to be added to the gene pool of a population, then that is an increase in information. If via selection an allele disappears from the gene pool of a population, then that is a decrease in information. --Percy Edited by Percy, : "a mutation" => "an allele" in last sentence.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Meddle Member (Idle past 585 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined: |
I would be interested to know what you consider the presence of non-homologous genes infers. You seem to be suggesting that these represent ‘statistically significant increase in functional information’ and therefore represent macroevolution. However, of the genes you listed in Message 167, all have homologues in the Orangutan and most are also found in the Gorilla and even the Macaque. This leaves the Chimpanzee as a seeming outlier based on your criteria, so what does this indicate for how you view primate evolution?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8524 Joined: |
If the differences between the human and chimp genomes do not constitute a "statistically significant increase in functional information", then those definitions are meaningless since evolution would not need to produce this increase. If the differences between the human and chimp genomes do constitute an increase, then you need to show how the known and natural processes of mutagenesis could not produce those differences. Your choice. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1557 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
This is an interesting question. If humans have a gene that has no homologue in chimps but has homologues in Orangutan, Gorilla, and Macaque what is the best explanation? Did this gene evolve independently in 4 species but not in the other; or is it a gene that comes from a common ancestor and was lost in the chimp species? Similarly there are genes in the chimp that have no homologue in humans but does have homologues in Orangutan, Gorilla, and Macaque. How would you explain this?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 20957 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
The latter.
Same way.
Primate evolution is an unremarkable example of evolution in action. --Percy
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8524 Joined:
|
Gene loss in the chimp lineage.
Gene loss in the human lineage.
If the gene loss/gains follow a phylogenetic pattern, it points to common ancestry. A common designer could remove and add genes in almost any pattern, but evolution can only produce one pattern, and that pattern is a phylogeny. For example, a common designer could add gene BBB to gorillas, humans, and macaques, but no other primate species. However, we don't see that pattern. We see that gene gains and losses follow a branching structure as we would expect from evolution and common ancestry.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1557 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
If humans have a gene that has no homologue in chimps but has homologues in Orangutan, Gorilla, and Macaque what is the best explanation?
Did this gene evolve independently in 4 species but not in the other; or is it a gene that comes from a common ancestor and was lost in the chimp species?
Similarly there are genes in the chimp that have no homologue in humans but does have homologues in Orangutan, Gorilla, and Macaque. How would you explain this?
So the hypothetical common ancestor of humans and chimps would have had a few hundred more genes that either humans or chimps. The hypothetical common ancestor of humans, chimps, Orangutan, Gorilla, and Macaque must have had several hundred more genes than any of its descendants. So this would be clear evidence of devolution. Creationists have been saying for some time that devolution, rather than evolution, is what we observe in nature. Darwin got it backwards.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1557 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
The differences between the human and chimp genomes constitute a "statistically significant difference in functional information". Since you and Percy have agreed that both humans and chimps have lost a large number of genes since the hypothetical common ancestor you should be arguing that this constitutes a "statistically significant loss in functional information". Since this requires no statistically significant increase in functional information it would be microevolution.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member Posts: 2102 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
So, humans and chimps and orangutangs and gorillas are all the same "kind", then?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JonF Member Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I'm sure Taq can answer this better than I, but "gene loss" does not mean "gene disappearance".
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 719 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And yet both chimps and humans are statistically significant functional organisms with all the same basic functionality. Doesn't that argue that either
Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 20957 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
That's how you've decided to measure amount of information in a genome? By counting the genes? The more genes the more information? Probably not valid. Anyway, you've made the error of paying attention to only one side of ledger, namely losing genes. Humans and chips have also acquired genes. Here's a chart that provides some gains and losses in number of genes:
The chart says the opposite, that the common ancestor had fewer genes.
More genes doesn't mean better. The amoeba genome is a hundred times larger than the human genome, though I don't know how many genes it has. And the water flea Daphnia has 31,000 genes, exceeding the human count of 19,000 by quite a bit. And does the Daphnia genome contain more information than the human genome? At the rate you're figuring out how to measure information, you'll never be able to answer that question.
What we observe in nature is the process of evolution, which includes gaining and losing chromosomes, genes and alleles. The term "devolution" has no defined meaning within biology. --Percy
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8524 Joined: |
Then all evolution needs to produce is a difference in order to produce macroevolution. It doesn't need to produce an increase as you define it.
Where did we say that there was a loss of a large number? You are putting words in our mouth. Also, you are focusing just on the losses. You are ignoring all of the other changes in each genome.
Humans evolving from an ape-like ancestor is microevolution? We could also compare the human genome with the lamprey genome. We will also see that there has been loss in both the human and lamprey lineages that lead away from that common ancestor. Does this mean that humans evolving from a fish-like ancestor is microevolution?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8524 Joined: |
All of those species would also have lineage specific genes not found in the common ancestor. You are forgetting those. Every lineage is going to have a combination of gene gain and gene loss. It's called evolution. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022