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Author | Topic: Can mutation and selection increase information? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
CRR writes: However in this case the original cell has ALL of the genetic and extra-genetic information for EVERY cell including the information to switch off the un-needed functions in each specialist tissue. That is the difference between a complex organism and a single celled organism. As I pointed out in another thread, the amoeba genome is a hundred times larger than the human genome. Which is more complex? You can't answer questions like that if you're going to avoid mathematics and information theory. And are answers to those questions meaningful when all that's important is whether an organism is well adapted to its environment? How would you mathematically measure how well adapted an organism is? If you could do that you could then compare level of adaptation to complexity or amount of information and see if there are any meaningful correlations. My guess is that there would be little correlation. Evolution is a random walk. Solutions to the adaptation problems faced by organisms in their environment are presented through allele frequency change and random mutation. Evolution makes do with what is available. How much genome an organism ended up with to achieve adaptation is probably random, though perhaps it may serve as a record of how much environmental change its ancestral species have passed through. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
CRR writes: However in this case the original cell has ALL of the genetic and extra-genetic information for EVERY cell including the information to switch off the un-needed functions in each specialist tissue. That is the difference between a complex organism and a single celled organism. I would agree that the production of tissues is what separates complex eukaryotes (animals, plants) from less complex species (protists, prokaryotes). It comes down to the evolution of switches in the genome that respond to chemicals released by neighboring cells. It is interesting to note that complex animals share some of the more important switches which are called homeobox genes.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2567 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Percy writes:
Over 200 times in the case of Amoeba dubia. the amoeba genome is a hundred times larger than the human genome My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 1769 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just curious: How much junk DNA is there in that amoeba genome?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9634 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
CRR writes:
Over 200 times in the case of Amoeba dubia.My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count. My conclusion is that the amoeba's genome is EXACTLY the size it needs to be for an amoeba. It containly precicely the correct amount (and value???) of informtion to be an amoeba. How much 'value' or 'information' do you think can you remove from an amoeba's genome before it's no longer viable? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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CRR writes: My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count. You're still confusing information with meaning, and you still have accepted no way of measuring information (Gitt cannot measure information). Therefore your statements about information gain or loss are meaningless. --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
CRR writes: My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count. If you found the following sequence in a book, would you think that it contained information? MGDVEKGKKIFIMKCSQCHTVEKGGKHKTGPNLHGLFGRKTGQAPGYSYTAANKNKGIIWGEDTLMEYLENPKKYIPGTKMIFVGIKKKEERADLIAYLKKATNE
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jar Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Bsgra jung frrzf tvoorevfu vf npghnyyl dhvgr vasbezngvir. Vmalu doha zlltz npiilypzo pz hjabhssf xbpal pumvythapcl. Tkyjs bmfy xjjrx lnggjwnxm nx fhyzfqqd vznyj nsktwrfynaj.
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Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Sfqfujujpo jt zpvs gsjfoe.
--Qfsdz
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Uif lfzxpse jt Qfsdz.
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Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Uibu'mm ufbdi nf up vtf nz sfbm obnf.
--Nyzaquml
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jar Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Exactly. But still, no one has presented the working definition of information, how to recognize information or how to determine increase in information. In my example there are actually at least four significant, definable, detectable and applicable bits of information and your post added two more.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2567 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
You're still confusing Shannon Information with Information. Shannon Information is only a metric for a message.
See Information - Wikipedia Information is that which informs, so it will have meaning.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2567 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined:
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
A simple answer to my question would be most appreciated.
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