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Author | Topic: The TRVE history of the Flood... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Davidjay writes: Coyote, if you want the true history of the Flood, just start a new thread, on it and I shall answer. You can post your billions and trillions of years, and I can post my immensely smaller exact numbers. Not a problem, just go to Proposed New Topics.... As requested, here is a proposed new topic in which Davidjay can enlighten us on the TRVE history of the Flood. I'd like to suggest the Humor forum, but probably shouldn't...Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
As I posted in the previous thread:
Coyote writes: My own archaeological research disproves the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. Research by my colleagues disproves it thousands of times over. In my research I have continuity of human cultures from before to after the date of the flood, and most importantly I have mitochondrial DNA of the same type extending from before to after that date. If there was such a flood, the earlier mtDNA haplotype would be eliminated, to be replaced by a type from the Middle East. A few other little details: there is no evidence of the erosional or depositional features that would necessarily associate with such a flood in the area I study. But if you truly want to see the features left by flood erosion, google "channeled scablands" and look at the images. Some notable examples are from central and eastern Washington: The nice thing about the flood evidence in Washington is that we can date the events and we know the cause! They occurred between 18,000 and 13,000 years ago, and resulted from formation and breakage of ice dams upstream. Oh, and this evidence is about three or four times older than the purported global flood. How is it that we see the evidence of those older floods but not evidence of a much larger and much more recent flood? (Answer: it didn't happen.) So, don't be claiming that the flood is TRVE history. It is a belief, not a fact. So, Davidjay, here's your big chance to "prove" the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. But you should be aware that all the mathematical models you can concoct won't overturn the huge amounts of real-world evidence that shows there was no such flood. Maybe you could also address my archaeological research, cited above--which you ignored on the previous thread?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I started a whole thread some months back for creationists to provide evidence that modern dating methods are somehow inaccurate.
Perhaps you could take your evidence there? Because you get nowhere just claiming dating methods are "fallible" without evidence.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
No I can't disprove your methods directly... Creationists have been trying to disprove radiometric and radiocarbon dating methods for decades with no success. They've resorted to some rather ingenious scenarios, but none are supported by the evidence.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Actually it's your dates that are a belief rather than a fact. Everything in your responses hinges on the dates, but again you offer no evidence -- just belief -- that the dating is inaccurate. As RAZD has eloquently pointed out in his dating threads, evidence from numerous different fields all supports scientific dating methods. The simplest of these, for radiocarbon dating, is calibration via tree rings (or glacial varves, corals, or other annular phenomena). This has been done in a number of areas around the world and the results agree -- radiocarbon dating is accurate. You can disbelieve that all you want, but you have to ignore a huge amount of evidence to do so.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
If you can't accept evidence there is no point in continuing this discussion.
You must realize that you're just "wishing away" huge amounts of evidence because of your a priori beliefs. In a scientific discussion that simply isn't done.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Davidjay writes: Word salad Davidjay writes: Again confirming the Biblical exact year of 2348 BC Hmmm. I have obtained radiocarbon dates of BC 2344, 2334, and 2306 in a couple of my excavations. Didn't see any evidence of floods. I also have continuity of mitochondrial DNA from before to after your 2348 BC date. That shows there was no population change. Perhaps you should knock off your mathematical models and look at real-world evidence for a change?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Coyote, with all due respect I hope, this argument is really silly. I don't know what David's arguments amount to since I can't read the links, but most likely you are simply not seeing the evidence creationists identify for the Flood although it's probably there even where you are doing your dating. The claim is that there is enough observed evidence that doesn't fit the Old Earth model to call the dating methods into question. You need to respond to the claims of such evidence instead of just relying on your dating methods alone. Your claim is that a religion-based belief disagrees with real-world evidence, so we have to discount the real-world evidence? All of it? That's not the way science works, and I am, at least, following science and scientific evidence. So far, there is no scientific evidence that shows radiocarbon dating is inaccurate, and there is a mountain of scientific evidence that shows that it is. RAZD has provided that evidence in several threads on dating. But I understand that creationists discount any evidence that disagrees with their beliefs, so no amount of evidence will suffice for them. But for those who do follow evidence, Davidjay provided an "exact" date for the global flood, and I provided three radiocarbon dates I have personally obtained in the immediate "after flood" time period. Looking at my full list, I have obtained six radiocarbon dates in the century after Davidjay's "exact" date. Unless you or some other creationist can show those dates are wrong -- and belief isn't enough -- then that evidence by itself disproves the global flood at Davidjay's date. Archaeologists all of the world have provided similar and even better evidence disproving the purported flood.
Well I am, and for all I know David is too, looking at real-world evidence (not scientific theories but physical observations) -- it's what I've been arguing here and everywhere else I've argued this -- observations of the real world. Since these observations call the Old Earth model into question, they also call the dating methods into question, so you can't just keep pointing to those methods as if they trump everything else. No, it is religious belief that causes creationists to call the dating methods into question. They are not able to show the methods are inaccurate, although they have tried for decades. Until somebody can show that these dating methods are wrong anyone who follows the evidence must accept the results. You can't just hand-wave away any results you don't like. That's where creation "science" differs from real science.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The Math is correct... But the conclusion is nonsense. You can model math 'til the cows come home and it won't magically poof a flood into existence when all the real-world evidence shows such a flood at your "exact" date never happened. You might as well be "proving" mathematically that bumblebees can't fly. You have yet to address the evidence I provided way back toward the beginning of the thread. To summarize: I have radiocarbon dates from my excavations falling in the years right after the purported flood, and I have mtDNA evidence of the same haplotype from before to after the date you give for the flood. Neither of these would be possible if there was a global flood.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
But already I and we are light years ahead of evolutionists because they have no math, no viable history just theory on theory. Ummmm. We have evidence, which is more than you have. I posted some evidence upthread twice from my own archaeological projects which by itself disproves the global flood at the "exact" time you are promoting. Why have you ignored that evidence? Or are you just here to push your pet theories, with no effort to actually debate the issue?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Evolutionists try to within a billion years whereas us creationists try to be much much more exact So, you have the exact date of the flood that never happened? How about addressing the evidence I posted, or are you just going to continuing on your merry way, ignoring everything that contradicts your mathematical "proof?"Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Coyote, your can have your non-evidence if you like. No problem thats your philosophical choice. But you asked me to enlighten you about the TRUE History or Mathematical proofs about the Great Worldwide Flood of Noah. You have stated the age of the purported flood, now its our turn to deal with that claim. If we can show there was no flood, as I have done easily from my own archaeological research, then further discussion of how you arrived at that date is useless. You might just as well be polishing the ship's bell on the Titanic for all the use those "proofs" are when the flood itself has been disproved.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
So 4004 BC is now established and confirmed !!!! Nonsense and more nonsense! You're building a house of cards, except cards are physical and real, while your constructs are neither. You are ignoring evidence that there was no flood at your "exact" date because you have nothing but silly numbers to fight with. The global flood at your date is disproved conclusively by my own research, and thousands of times over by the research of others. Now you want to use your silly numbers to "prove" a young earth, 4004 BC? What a joke! From my own research half a world away from the Near East I have radiocarbon dates of 4304 BC and 4395 BC, as well as a stack of older ones. (Other scientists take the dates back billions of years of course.) So there, before you even get started preaching is disproof for your flimsy numbers. But if you're true to form you will just ignore this evidence and keep on spouting your silly numbers as if they had any connection to the real world.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
My flimsy numbers are made in stone, so you can never forget them and will always note in the HEREAFTER that they were there as evidence against your lack of knowledge and math, Coyote. In other words, you are going to ignore all the evidence that shows you are flat-out wrong? Typical creationist. (You really should put, "Amen" after all your posts as what you're doing here is preaching. You're not debating.)Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2306 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Coyote, you might have answered this already. Where do you have this mtDNA and how is it dated? The dating is done by radiocarbon dating, as well as other less-accurate methods such as artifact associations, stratigraphy, etc. As to where, there are a number of laboratories around the country that specialize in analyzing ancient DNA. Many are in universities, but there are also some commercial ones.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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