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Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A very brief history of Human Life | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The oldest fossil record of life we currently have is over 3.5 billion years old.
quote: quote: quote: The first life thus is >3.5 billion years old, and it was likely even simpler than the prokaryote cyanobacter shown above. Since that time the only way that life has been observed to reproduce and diversify in single cell life forms is by mitosis (cell division), with occasional Horizontal gene transfer. Then some 1.6—2.1 billion years ago ago eukaryotes appeared
quote: All multicellular life involves eukaryotic cells, and they appear to be monophyletic, descendant from a single cell. In sexual reproduction the process is a little more complicated than mitosis
quote: There is no new "creation of life" or added material observed through either mitosis or meiosis reproductive mechanisms, it is just a flowing of life from parent to offspring, a continuous flow that has been going on for over 3.5 billion years. Thus the pro-life claim that "life is created at conception" is factually flawed misinformation. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : titleby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There is no new "creation of life" or added material observed through either mitosis or meiosis reproductive mechanisms, it is just a flowing of life from parent to offspring, a continuous flow that has been going on for over 3.5 billion years. Thus the pro-life claim that "life is created at conception" is factually flawed misinformation. Exploring this further:
quote: bold for emphasis. So a zygote is "capable of growth into a human being" ... except that 55% never reach day 9, implanting in wall of uterus. That is more than half of zygotes are not "capable of growth into a human being" leaving 45% zygotes after the first week. We don't have numbers from week 1 to week 4 but we can assume it is the same or higher for the weeks 4 to 12 when 15% miscarry. Thus we can assume 15% x 11 weeks / 8 weeks = 20.6% ... and this is likely low because the number of miscarriages drops with time. ... so of the 45% that do proceed to week 12, ~20.6% miscarry, meaning that 55% + 45%x20.6% = 64% are lost naturally, leaving only 36% of the original zygotes with any hope of growing into a living breathing human being. Miscarriages continue to occur right up to birth, including premature birth and still-birth. A still-born fetus has no hope of growing into a living breathing human being. Furthermore ...
quote: There was never any hope that the zygotes that ended up as empty sac pregnancies could have grown into a living breathing human being, and these are fairly common among miscarriages.
quote: These pregnancies require medical intervention to prevent the death of the woman, whether or not you call it abortion, and (not trying to be insensitive, just factual) there is no hope of these types of pregnancy ever becoming a living breathing human being. So there should be no objection to this medical intervention. And there is more information pertinent to the issue of actually resulting in a living breathing human being ...
quote: Check the table above for where 24 weeks fits in the development of the fetus, as this appears to be the lower limit of premature birth that can survive with medical assistance, even if the quality of life is severely diminished -- and some parents may justifiably choose to turn the machine off. And that should be their right to choose, just as family has the right to choose to turn off the machines at the end of life for terminally ill parents. But what is indisputable is that over 64% of conceptions have no hope of ever becoming a living breathing human being. That is not "creation" of life. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : .. Edited by RAZD, : weeks 1 to 4 estimatedby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One could argue with equal fervor as the pro-life crowd that a fully functional non-dependent human being begins at 8 or 9 years old, as depicted in the "Home Alone" movies. But this is unreasonable because humans are a social support species that look after their young and the young of others. Traditionally people have considered that the baby is alive when it draws it's first breath, the breath of life. There are fundamental physical differences between a fetus and a baby, including some changes that occur shortly after birth before the baby is fully functioning as a living breathing laughing human. These changes are part of the challenge in helping prematurely born babies to live (which they normally do not do when there is no treatment):
quote: There are profound differences between a human fetus and a living breathing baby human, and calling a fetus an "unborn baby" is inaccurate and apparently intentionally misleading, playing on emotion rather than objective empirical evidence. Call me a traditionalist if you will, but I believe that the change from fetus to living breathing baby occurs at birth, when the first breath is taken and the life-support dependence on the umbilical chord is severed. Until then, from zygote to fetus, it lives on life support at the pleasure of the woman. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If you let the fetus develop on its own without interference it will become a baby. Sadly this is not always true. Miscarriages occur right up to birth, and even then still-births occur, and then sometimes early infant deaths occur (especially among premies) due to developmental incompleteness or incompatibility. As you can see from Message 4 and above there are profound differences between a human fetus and a living breathing human baby.
A baby will become a toddler, a toddler a child, a child an adult and so on. Once it survives the first several months the likelihood of growing old steadily increases, agreed. A child may be capable of independent survival at 8 or 9 years of age, but it takes until the age of 20 or so for the brain to fully develop the cognitive ability to make fully reasoned decisions and consider the consequences of actions. We also as a society tend to take care of babies and children, but malnutrition and poor education opportunities limit some from reaching their full potential. Certainly anyone that is pro-life should agree.
It's just a self-serving rationalization to think you can kill it at any stage and not be murdering a human being. quote:While I do not agree with the emotional tone and twisting of word definitions, I think we can agree that the life of the mother is more important than the potential life of the fetus. It's just a self-serving rationalization to think you can kill it at any stage and not be murdering a human being. Let’s look at the actual details before you apply a broad brush and sweeping statements.
If the fetus spontaneously aborts that's not murder; if the born human being dies of natural causes that is not murder either; but if you kill it at any stage that's murder, or whatever it should be called legally. Abortion is currently legal and thus it cannot be called murder. Calling a skunk cabbage a rose does not make the flower smell like one.
It would also be murder to kill a person who couldn't live without mechanical help with breathing or kidney dialysis or anything like that. Before those machines became available, and indeed in location around the world where they are not available, the people die, and they die natural deaths. Thus it cannot be murder to provide them, and then withdraw that life-support when it no longer is useful, for reasons discussed below. The legal standard of death is very clear:
quote: Since I last wrote on this subject in 2004 (Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion), the second definition of death has been added. This is consistent with the "higher brain death" concept of personhood discussed below.
It would also be murder to kill a person who couldn't live without mechanical help with breathing or kidney dialysis or anything like that. So we are now discussing a person, and this applies to end of life personhood issues. The above definitions of death are used to determine when a terminally ill person has passed the threshold from human life to not human life, even though significant portions of living cells still persist. This allows for organ transplants, say of a kidney to improve the quality of life for a person that was on dialysis. Of course the decision to pull the plug lies with the family, in consultation with the doctor and after review of the prognosis. The family can also decide whether or not to allow organ transplants (depending on any directives of the patient, such as no heroic measures).
quote: I was quite pleased to find this still on the web even though the previous link no longer works. My mother had dementia, and for over a decade her abilities dwindled and eroded until at the end she was a shell of the vibrant, curious and witty person we knew growing up. She wasn’t totally gone, but she also was not totally there. My dad looked after her and dealt with it as best he could, keeping her home and out of institutions, getting assistance at the end (when she needed 24 hour care). In the end she died peacefully at home in his arms. If dad had institutionalized her she likely would have passed much sooner, so this is a decision he made to maintain as best he could the quality of her life.
You are rationalizing murder by pretending it doesn't have all the stuff of a human being at every stage. ummm because objectively it doesn’t? A zygote has neither brain, lungs nor heart. At 4 weeks (30 days) they still have not developed. By week 8 they have, but there are still critical developments that need to occur before birth to result in a living breathing baby, and any misstep will likely result in miscarriage. Certainly a zygote passing through the uterus without implantation has no measurable difference from a skin cell dying from sunburn and being sloughed off. In fact the cells in your body are constantly changing as new cells are made (mitosis) and old cells die (apoptosis).
quote: I injured my finger, getting a small blood blister under the nail near the cuticle, and I have observed over the couse of several weeks that it is migrating to the finger tip as new cells fill in behind it and old cells are sloughed off at the tip (part of the dross under your fingernails is dead skin cells). The reason you don’t maintain a tan is because the skin surface dies and sloughs away as new cells grow behind them. Curiously, this means that the 8 or 9 year old child that just reaches the capability for independent survival does not have any of the cells it was born with.
It would also be murder to kill a person who couldn't live without mechanical help with breathing or kidney dialysis or anything like that. So we see that the decisions around personhood and death deserve a pluralistic approach to allow people with different belief systems to choose when and how to declare death, and such a pluralistic approach should also apply to when a human person begins. So the question then becomes when does personhood begin. Enjoy ps -I lost the first version of this just as I went to post it, I notice that you edited your post, and I have accommodated that.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If a blastocyst is independent life, how does it follow an egg and sperm are not? A blastocyst is a potential toddler as is every egg and sperm. Actually 7-10% of blastocysts become "empty sac" pregnancies, an embryonic sac with nothing but liquid inside. Not a human life as I understand it. Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Other things such as mercy, assessment of possibility of recovery and so on, enter into decisions about life support. There are so many things that go into it that it's not possible to give a principle that covers them all. Even you wouldn't be in favor of removing life support in many cases. So you agree that a pluralistic approach should be used where the decision is made by the family in consultation with the doctor after reviewing the prognosis. Thanks, Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But if a fertilized egg is human life with all the rights and privileges, we need to be able to accurately account for each and every one. We need to hold mothers accountable for any behavior that threatens the human life she is carrying ... When that fertilized egg (zygote) never implants in the uterus it can never become a living breathing human. When that fertilized egg (blastula) only develops into an empty sac it can never become a living breathing human. At the other extreme, a fetus that is still-born can never become a living breathing human. And the question is then what is a human. It is not a cell, or our bodies would be filled to overflowing with humans. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There is no moral contradiction in saving the life of an innocent unborn while approving of legally prescribed death for a criminal. ... So you are not pro-life, just pro-fetus. And I have always found this opinion to be bizarre. At one end you object to socially sanctioned termination of a potential human and at the other you approve of the socially sanctioned murder of a fully developed human.
Right to life can be forfeited after all, ... but preserve the life of the guilty. That's nuts. So you don't believe in even the possibility of rehabilitation or the possibility an innocent person is wrongly convicted. Sad. Back in the 70's iirc it was shown that educating convicts reduce recidivism dramatically, letting people return to society in a constructive way, prepared to work with a GED or more. Conservatives objected to them getting free education instead of being punished and scrapped the programs. Likewise education has show dramatic reduction in teen pregnancies, but conservatives object and want to keep children ignorant of how their own bodies work. Curiously I find such conservative ideas against educating people to improve their lives morally objectionable. Other countries do better than the US imho, and not just in banning capital punishment:
quote: Who would have thought that improving the prisoners ends up improving the whole society. What an offensive socialist program that is [/sarcasm] Have you ever heard about the "Birdman of Alcatraz"? It shows that an inmate sentenced to life can still make positive contributions to society.
... saving the life of an innocent unborn ... the unborn baby has done nothing to forfeit it. ... It is not that simple, the people involved in the decision do so because of several factors, often it is the severely deformed fetus with no chance of a normal life. Recently the news was all about the zika virus causing birth defects resulting in extremely tiny brains and babies with constant pain and short lives. So I can understand that some may consider abortion mercy in such a case while others don't and proceed to birth. That is their choice as far as I am concerned. We also have instances where the mother will survive but be permanently disabled and they have a right to make a quality of life decision about their life. Or the parents are impoverished barely able to feed and house themselves to say nothing of the care of a child, one that would be sentenced to a life of malnutrition and poor health, a very low quality of life for the child. Or the mother is a drug addict and the fetus has been affected by the drugs and can never become a normal person, another low quality of life for the child born mentally challenged. Or the father has disappeared or been killed and the mother knows she won't be able to provide a good life on her own, a decreased quality of life for parent and child. Such decisions are not made lightly. I've known women that remember the day, how old the child would be, but still would have made that decision again. And that is HER choice. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... I had an abortion at age twenty, then had a dream about a small child riding off in a hearse waving to me. I'd told myself it was just a bit of tissue, the standard rationalization then and now, and then I had that dream. It is hard to think about it now without crying. And mothers I know that had late miscarriages have similar feelings. One couple was trying to have a child had several miscarriages until they could no longer bear it, even though they went through extreme measures to keep the fetus (staying in bed, special diet, some medications, all to no avail). It would be abnormal to not morn the loss. But that doesn't solve the problem of unwanted pregnancies. In my opinion a fully pro-life position would be about the quality of life for all people:
If you don't meet that standard, imho, you are not pro-life. The goal would be for every pregnancy to be a wanted pregnancy in a healthy, happy environment. And it would be about rehabilitation and education and counseling guidance of lawbreakers rather than punishment and murder, treating drug use as a medical condition instead of a crime. It would be about emptying the factory prisons of the mass incarceration pogrom of people convicted of minor crimes because they are poor uneducated and colored. Three strikes and you're in for life, even if you are 14. These prisons do more damage to society than abortions. Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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It's got all the stuff for making a human being already present. ... ... It doesn't matter what you call it at any stage, it's got all the stuff for developing into a human being, so if you kill it at any stage you are ending the life of that human being. ... No it doesn't, otherwise it could survive and grow outside the woman\uterus.
... There's no need to get into all the definitional nitpicking, it WILL BE a human being if it develops naturally without interference. ... Except when that "interference" comes from within the DNA or from conflict with the woman (blood incompatibility) or when it goes through the uterus and down the toilet because it failed to attach to the uterus wall. Because 55% if zygotes never attach to the uterus in the first week, and 15% will end up as miscarriages (due to natural interference) during weeks 4-12. Curiously we don't know how many miscarriages occur between weeks 1 and 4, but it is likely to be higher than 2% per week because the rate of miscarriages drops with time. Assuming the same rate of miscarriages for the 11 weeks from the end of the fist week (where we are down to 45% of the original zygotes) as document for the 8 weeks between week 4 and 12 gives 15% x 11 weeks / 8 weeks = 20.6% miscarriages So 20.6% of the remaining 45% of zygotes = 9% ending up in miscarriages on top of the 55% lost in the first week, for a total of 64% of the original zygotes that don't have the stuff to become human beings. Only 36% of the original zygotes have the 'stuff' to make it to week 12, and they are not out of the woods yet. Miscarriages still occur right up to birth with still-borns.
... That's up to nature, and none of those possibilities justify killing it. ... Unless continuing the pregnancy will kill the woman or disable her permanently, unless the fetus will develop abnormally and severely handicapped such that survival at birth is unlikely. Deaths after birth occur, often because of internal deformities or incomplete developments. More often with preemies.
... I think this is instinctively understood by everybody but it's suppressed by all this rationalization and nitpicking that propagandizes women into killing their children. And yet we aren't talking instinct and emotion, we are talking objective empirical evidence. People have ultrasounds, not to make a picture for their wall or to check the sex, but to see if the fetus is malformed or damaged. Other tests are also made to ensure health and proper development, like Amnio Tests, especially in older women:
quote: Some people that want a healthy normal baby will choose to abort one that is damaged so that they can proceed to try again. That is THEIR choice. It's not propaganda, it's FACT. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I don't suppose you'd care to require that marriage be emphasized as the healthy happy envionrment that children should grow up in ... As long as it is a loving respectful sharing marriage, yes. My wife and I got married after getting pregnant because we wanted to be sure it worked before making such a life commitment. But a "marriage" where the husband comes home drunk and beats the wife when the baby cries is not a better environment than a single mother can provide by herself.
... and put a lot of energy into the cultural critique of free sex and fatherless children and solutions to it. ... Wouldn't that come under teaching children about sex, how their bodies work (and how to respect each other)? Wouldn't that come under counseling on how to improve\maximize the chances of having a healthy baby?
... That's a direction I think we should go, not just for the sake of the mother and child, but for the sake of society. So you are in favor of open sex education and teaching respect and cooperation. good.
Beyond that, pro-life counseling is often denounced and prevented by the pro-abortion people. What it does, however, is counsel women with unwanted pregnancies about how it really is a human being, and encourages them to bring it to term, ... And it is denounced because they don't listen to what the pregnant woman wants, they tell her what they want and impose their values on the pregnant woman. That is evil. imho if you want to convince someone to carry a baby to term they should adopt the mother and provide a happy respectful home for her and the child.
... These ministries are all over the country. So where are they before the pregnancy, are they teaching sex education? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Faith,
Nothing that occurs in the natural course of pregnancy justifies killing the developing baby, so there's no point in going on and on about those natural processes. If they lead to miscarriage that's not murder. In your opinion. In msg 10: when does personhood begin I talked about personhood and the pluralistic approach to declaring when the essential essence of a person is dead, and how it is legally and morally up to the family to decide when to pull the plug on a terminally in person:
quote: So it should come as no surprise that a similar pluralistic approach can be taken for determining when personhood begins, dealing with the quality of life, and the wide variety of beliefs in families, such that no one simple rule can be applied.
I already said the mother's life is more important than the baby's. A threat to her life or health is really the only justification for terminating a pregnancy. ... So we have some agreement that the known life of the mother is more important than the potential life of a fetus.
... Deformities of the child are not a reason to my mind. In your opinion, certainly not in everyone's opinion, hence pluralism -- where families decide on a case by case basis. In The pro-life claim "life is created at conception" is just wrong I provided a chart of stages in development, and looking at the first week
Up to the stage in development when the blastocyst implants I personally see no difference morally or legally between using a "morning after" pill and contraceptives when the goal is to prevent pregnancies.
quote: Nor do I see any moral or legal issues with using an abortifacient like RU 486 in the early stages (first month). Looking at the table again:
quote: At the end of the first month of development the gastrula does not look anything like a human being with a brain and a heart and lungs, it is basically an elongated layered bag of cells. Certainly there can be no personhood issue at this stage.
quote: Note that I have again used a pro-life source, so I judge the information should be seen as accurate.
If the goal is to prevent pregnancy, then contraceptives, morning-after pills and abortifacients (like RU 486 and elleOne) are all imho both morally and legally valid means to achieve that end. But that after that first month has passed, we should be dealing with people that wanted a pregnancy but end up getting an abortion. In msg 23: moral objections differ -- life vs death I gave several examples of conditions that can lead people to choose an abortion:
quote: In Message 38 I listed a bunch of reasons for people that feel an abortion is justified (in their opinions):
quote: And I repeat that some people that want a healthy normal baby will choose to abort a fetus that is damaged so that they can proceed to try again. And that legally and morally imho that it is THEIR choice. What is rather obvious is that society has decided that it is moral and legal to have an abortion, and that it is the family that decides, not government or doctors or strident protesters. Because that is a pluralistic approach that recognizes that different people have different values and beliefs about the beginning of personhood just as they do about terminally ill people. A duty of a moral society imho is to accommodate that pluralism in our laws so that the people can decide their personal cases according to their beliefs and the medical facts. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't think it's relevant when something you would define as "personhood" begins, since the point I've been arguing is that if you leave it alone at any stage it will inevitably become a person, barring the effect of abnormal processes. Well faith, that "personhood" is not important to you, doesn't mean it is not important to other people. As I've said there are a plurality of views, not a single one. And when 55% of zygotes fail to implant that is a perfectly normal, natural part of the process, and leaving them alone will not result in a living breathing human being.
I also have a problem based on this reasoning, with any abortifacient or contraceptive that interferes after egg and sperm have combined, because all the genetic material is there for the making of the human being. I might be forced to make an exception for it just because it's popular and not gruesome like abortion, but logically I'm against the exception. That is your belief and you are welcome to it, other people have the same right to their beliefs on this issue. This again leads to a pluralist approach to let people decide how this applies to their lives. And when that genetic material produces an empty sac with no embrio inside, that too is a perfectly normal, natural part of the process, and leaving them alone will not result in a living breathing human being. There is no person there because there is no there there.
I expect to meet my own child in heaven, the one that I aborted when I was twenty, which was done at the age of about seven weeks. If the fertilized ovum is also a child IN GOD'S EYES, then there are going to be a lot of children meeting their Christian parents in heaven. I don't know of course. There may be an early stage of purely physical formation before the soul is infused by God. Nobody knows that. I rather think if the genetic material is all there, then it's the person in the making already. BUT, again, since we can't know that, I suppose I have to make the exception for the earliest stages. Thank you. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The title sounds like an Andy Borowitz column ...
quote: A victory for women and for choice. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1759 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Only a perverted legal system could call the murder of an unborn child ... The term "unborn child" is a fiction of the extreme right, not reality. There are fundamental differences between a fetus and a child. The first breath and subsequent use of lungs is one, and it is major when that does not happen because the fetus died. A second is closing an opening in the heart so that the heart pumps the child's blood instead of the umbilical blood, and a third is the change from (2α2γ) hemoglobin to hemoglobin (2α2β). See Message 4 An empty sac pregnancy is not an unborn child it doesn't even have any potential of ever becoming a child. It is a cluster of cells enclosing fluid, period. You can't "murder" a sac of fluid. You also can't murder a "stone baby" ...
quote: This is why our legal system does not use this term -- it is medically inaccurate and misleading. Our legal system embraces a plurality of opinions, not a religious dogma of opinion. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : added second paragraph Edited by RAZD, : stone babyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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