You are.

Guido, you only win if we stay on topic! Which led me to wonder why we started a Post called "You Are" in the first place! And then, sleuth that I am, I followed your line of reasoning to the post that you made debating Crashfrog.It started, I think, with be LIE ve...You then say: And then, in true Guido fashion, you bounce off the wall with this line of reasoning! Well? It would be your Mother, would it not? I know for a fact that MY Mother has not essentially changed a whole lot in the past 20 years at least! Which I can in no way do! You know me, Guido...I can toss around ideas as long as I understand them somewhat...but you like to fling ideas into the forum like a paintball war! *Splat! *Splat!* Oh really? If nobody understood Guido, would Guido still exist? So by your line of reasoning, if we by some magical time machine could visit the Ookapopolians, they would be of a different consciousness than we are aware of?
Within the context of MY Belief, God sees the future and is of One Consciousness...but then, we can hardly begin to figure out human brains, much less His!! His mind is, I believe, able to be an infinite and unchangeable consciousness...but lets stick to human intelligence for the moment! I have understood that the human body has entirely different cells every 90 days or so!...at least every blood cell is different! And I have always wondered if some day, computer technology will be able to outdo the Brain. In other words, will our smartness through human creation of technology evolve into a smarter machine than its creators? Nwr points out that the issues in AI are complex and that there are no easy answers to any of this speculation! Slim, you have to see Guido in context, here! He is 14 and his speculations and thought processes are not as disciplined (and boring ) as many of us who are more mature and better educated. I don't think that we have any research papers on that subject, yet. Let Guido get through 10th grade, first! No, we are simply contrasting the natural processes of human consciousness and creative science with Artificial Intelligence, right? And we ALL can admit that the human mind is capable of great learning potential...it is at this point still more complex than the best computers!One thing to keep in mind, Guido, is that in these types of discussions, it is better to make carefully worded replies and not be so quick to assume that people are attacking your intelligence...even if they are, they often forget that the objective is not to "win" the argument so much as to express themselves articulatly and move the thread discussion along in a productive manner! (Thats why I took the trouble to type this 30 minute response to you! ) Again I ask you, Guido.. Do you think that artificial intelligence will ever mimic human behavior to an undectable degree? By "undectable, I mean that if a computer were thinking and reasoning out this response to you instead of me, (Phat) do you think that technology would ever be able to advance to the unique levels of consciousness and identity that we humans exhibit?And lets flip this question around to the forum! Do any of you reading this think that the best scientists in the world could ever hypothetically produce a computer or a robot that is as unique and abstract as the mind of Guidosoft? This kid is only 14 yet he thinks nonstop 24/7! Actually, by having discussions, educating ourselves, examining the ideas and beliefs of other people that are not like us, I think that we all win, Guido!So it is obvious that We are! We are thinking...discussing...creating, and contrasting.Any more ideas on this topic and the line of reasoning behind it? The ball is in your court, Guido...which direction do you want the topic to go now?This message has been edited by Phat, 11-29-2005 12:49 AM

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Nature is an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.
Pensées (1670)We arrive at truth, not by reason only, but also by the heart.
Pensées (1670)Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Holy Spirit--speaking through the Apostle Paul

Maybe you should reconsider, because I'm not sure that that's where your talents are. How about carbon and electricity? What if I said "carbon and electricity will never produce consciousness", would that make sense to you? Obviously carbon and electricity do produce consciousness. So maybe it's interesting to find out what fundamental barrier exists that keeps silicon from producing consciousness. Is there really such a barrier? Honestly, Guido, if you think about that again, do you stand by it? Do you think it is a reasonable statement?I don't know how young you are, Guido, but you come over as an eager fourteen-year-old with a voracious appetite for knowledge. That's good. But every now and then, you should stop and think about what you've learned. Try to get some perspective, try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And never, ever, assume you know it all. What you and I know is nothing compared to what we don't know. Realizing that makes what we do know worth a lot more.This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 29-Nov-2005 09:58 PM

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"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

Guido exists in the physical world and is a conscious being. Wheather you believe I exist or not does not change that fact. However, language only exists in the human mind.Hold on, I will post further replies to your other statements and the statements of others later. My attention is not in this thread at the current moment.

This topic has spiralled out of my control. I could not bear to manage it any further. This is why I began to respond to posts the way I did towards the end of the debate. I was preoccupied and overcome by lassitude with the topic and thus I could not respond appropriatly. So I may have responded in manners that made little to no sense.I think a fresh continuation is in order. It was just that the majority (you) was heavily armed against the minority (me). I had no alliance an thus I could not battle the opponet coallition.

Why is this on top?Edited by Guidosoft, : What the?

Check your profile. Set the order to Chronological. That should put it at the bottom.

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Yeah, Guido. Glad to see you back! I was a bit overbearing back then, but i wanted to challenge you to think.I'll shut up this time, though.

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Guidosoft

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Please tell me where they become conscious?

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That is a very good question Guidiosoft, but it is unlikely to be a question that is resolved directly. If we assume the position that consciousness is the activity of the brain it is reasonable to think that we should be able to alter the structure of the conscious state by altering the state of the brain.

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Have you ever been knocked unconscious? If so how do we explain this as a phenomena of the actions of particles. Is it possible that the interaction of the mass that knoocked you unconscious with the mass of your brain was accomplished through through the electromagnetic force? If not, how else do we explain the lack of a consciousness after a sufficient impact to the head?

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However, if we assume this to be the case then we can expect that the conscious state can be altered by a variety of means employing the electromagnetic force. Since we are aware that chemical properties are the result of the EM force then it stands to reason that there are chemicals that can do such things. In fact if you have ever had surgery and been under general anesthesia you would be well aware of the effects of the chemical injections.

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I am sure you have heard of the capital punishment method of lethal injection in which chemicals are introduced into the blood stream and produce not only unconsciousness but also cause the cessation of heartbeat and subsequent death from this.

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There is also the loss of consciousness as a result of a low oxygen enviroment. Why should such a situation result in the loss of consciousness unless the oxygen somehow interacted with the brain tissue in such a way that the lack of it does something to the brain tissues? Of course the means by which oxygen provides the cells of the body with this necessisty of life is well known and is interesting to explore.

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This does not of course explain how consciousness arises in brain tissue but it does place limits on what we can expect the reason to be.

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The brain has access to the consciousness. When something affects the brain, its access to the consciousness through physical means is affected. This is why physical activity in the brain affects consciousness. It does not produce it. It is not responsible for it. It is merely affecting it.I would really appreciate it if we could continue this in a fresh new topic.

Do you still want to discuss the topic in the opening post, #1?I replied to that in Message 32 and you haven't replied.I'd be able to respond your latest post better if you responded to my first one first.

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For example, someone brough up a chair earlier. The chair is made up of atoms and atoms are mostly empty space. So how can the chair be solid if its made up of mostly empty space? This seems to be how your looking at consciousness in the brain and you just can't look that close, there is more involved.

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The chair is solid because of the electromagnetic force. Its that simple. It is indeed made up of mostly empty space therefore objects that can fit in that space will be given the perception that it is not solid, but objects that cannot fit in those spaces will be given the perception that it is solid. Everything that happens in the physical world is naturally explainable by physical interactions. Consciousness is not something which happens in the physical world though it is what is used to percieve the physical world. It is probably difficult for you to imagine that consciousness is not within the physical world because with your consciosuness you are experiencing the physical world. But consciousness is not physical. It is spiritual. Neither is free will physical but spiritual for if free will were physical it would be mathematically predictable and would therefore cease to be free will.

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Honestly, Guido, if you think about that again, do you stand by it? Do you think it is a reasonable statement?

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I don't know how young you are, Guido, but you come over as an eager fourteen-year-old with a voracious appetite for knowledge. That's good. But every now and then, you should stop and think about what you've learned. Try to get some perspective, try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And never, ever, assume you know it all. What you and I know is nothing compared to what we don't know. Realizing that makes what we do know worth a lot more.

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You knew I was 14 because I stated it awhile ago and you saw it. You mam, are a cheep illuisionist. I say mam because your avatar suggest that you are female, however I am uncertain so correct me if I am wrong.

It was a rhetorical question meant to be an example of the kind of question you asked in the OP. I disagree. What about dark matter? Also, I’d consider consciousness to be a thing that happens in the natural world that is not naturally explainable by physical interactions. But, then again, you said . I disagree. Why do you think that consciousness doesn’t happen in the physical world? <---- said .

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Consciousness is not something which happens in the physical world though it is what is used to percieve the physical world. It is probably difficult for you to imagine that consciousness is not within the physical world because with your consciosuness you are experiencing the physical world. But consciousness is not physical.

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You never said why you think that way, you just reasserted your claim. The above quote is a logical fallacy. Maybe you can explain it better. To me it seems obvious that consciousness happens in the physical world so I’ll need to be convinced that it doesn’t to discuss it with you. You don’t have to be very convincing, but at least one reason is required. You can’t just assert it and then reassert it and expect me to know what you mean. This is incorrect. Perception is carried out by the senses (seeing, hearing, etc.). Consciousness is applied to your perceptions, it analyzes the data that is collected while perceiving but it doesn’t actually do any of the perceiving. I disagree. We can’t even predict the weather. Being physical doesn’t make something predictable.

Guidosoft So how do you explain that if I take a big stick and whack you upside the head I can render you unconscious?

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So how do you explain that if I take a big stick and whack you upside the head I can render you unconscious?

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Simple, the state of the brain affects the state of the consciousness because there is a direct relationship between the two. However the consciousness is not a direct result of the brain.

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I disagree. What about dark matter? Also, I’d consider consciousness to be a thing that happens in the natural world that is not naturally explainable by physical interactions. But, then again, you said .

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Consciousness is not something which happens in the physical world...

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If dark matter is physical than it is explainable by physical interactions. If it is not than it can't be explained by physical interactions. So my statement still stand with the following modificataion:Anything that happens naturally in the physical world is the result of physical interactions.

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This is incorrect. Perception is carried out by the senses (seeing, hearing, etc.). Consciousness is applied to your perceptions, it analyzes the data that is collected while perceiving but it doesn’t actually do any of the perceiving.

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You are wrong. The senses merely recieve information. The consciousness experiences the perception.Consciousness is the actual experiencing of things. We are supposed to be debating with this premise. Consciousness and awareness are two different things. Unless you are a robot, you should be able to grasp my concept of consciousness. Otherwise I will have to assume that I am the only real I and you are all here for my pleasure. That would be quite upsetting.

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I disagree. Why do you think that consciousness doesn’t happen in the physical world?

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When you touch something, you feel it. Do you think that the experiencing of that sensation is a physical thing? I sure don't. You might be able to say that (which I disagree with) the experience is caused by physical interactions in the brain, which I believe to be partly true, but it is redicuous to say that experience itself it physical. Concepts are not physical. Concepts are not even stored physically. Representations of concepts are stored physically. Concepts are concious ideas, which are not physical either but are stored in representation physically. So concepts I don't believe are physical.This is all very difficult to explain.

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I disagree. We can’t even predict the weather. Being physical doesn’t make something predictable

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Your thinking is clearly flawed, not mine. I said that it was predictable. I never said humans could predict it. There is a difference. What I meant was, there is a direct mathematical relationship between the now, and a seccond from now. Everything natural and physical follows a logical protocol. Therefore they are predictable.Edited by Guidosoft, : No reason given.