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Author Topic:   You are.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 226 of 275 (260908)
11-18-2005 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by bkelly
11-18-2005 8:26 AM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
No computer can sense and form a comprehension of someting it has never "seen" before and incorporate new rules and insructions into its programming to deal with that new something.
Well, most people can't do that, either. When faced with something totally new most people immediately retreat into what they already know, and attempt to apply the rules they already understand to the new situation.
I think that, in discussions of AI, there's a tendancy to romanticize the power of the human mind, and ignore the fact that the vast majority of everyone's day is spent doing repeated tasks and instinctual behaviors. The vaunted powers of reason our species is continually credited with aren't actually necessary all that often.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by bkelly, posted 11-18-2005 8:26 AM bkelly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Christian7, posted 11-18-2005 5:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 227 of 275 (261050)
11-18-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by crashfrog
11-18-2005 10:42 AM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
Ok, first of all. I program in C++ and VB and I know alot about how computers work and I am telling you that AI cannot produce consciousness , period. K? Good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by crashfrog, posted 11-18-2005 10:42 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Slim Jim, posted 11-18-2005 7:48 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 232 by crashfrog, posted 11-18-2005 10:01 PM Christian7 has replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 228 of 275 (261052)
11-18-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by crashfrog
11-17-2005 7:56 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
Ah, but if time travel is possible and if you go into the past then those people in the past will not be the same consciousness as the same people in the present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2005 7:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 11-18-2005 5:21 PM Christian7 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 275 (261053)
11-18-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Christian7
11-18-2005 5:18 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
wow, Guido....you know about computers, then? Do you see artificial intelligence and robotics as a possible future career for you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Christian7, posted 11-18-2005 5:18 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Christian7, posted 11-18-2005 6:12 PM Phat has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 230 of 275 (261077)
11-18-2005 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
11-18-2005 5:21 PM


Re: free will = pragmatic choice
I'm starting to want to be a writter now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 11-18-2005 5:21 PM Phat has not replied

Slim Jim
Junior Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 05-06-2005


Message 231 of 275 (261114)
11-18-2005 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Christian7
11-18-2005 5:16 PM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
Ok, first of all. I program in C++ and VB and I know alot about how computers work and I am telling you that AI cannot produce consciousness , period. K? Good.
It's not that simple. The weak AI hypothesis asserts that machines can possibly act is if they were intelligent; the strong AI hypothesis asserts that machines that act intelligently are actually thinking in a conscious manner (as opposed to simulating thinking).
You are making the grand claim that the strong AI hypothesis is unfounded, but you do not provide any particular evidence why this is so. Rather you tell us that you program in two OO languages as though the object-oriented paradigm gives you a fundamental insight into the philosophical foundations of AI.
What specific evidence do you have that the strong AI hypothesis is unfounded?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Christian7, posted 11-18-2005 5:16 PM Christian7 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 232 of 275 (261161)
11-18-2005 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Christian7
11-18-2005 5:16 PM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
Ok, first of all. I program in C++ and VB and I know alot about how computers work and I am telling you that AI cannot produce consciousness , period. K? Good.
First of all, I program in C++, VB, Java, LISP, PHP, and Perl, to name a few, I pursued about half of a BA in computer science before switching to english, and held employment for over four years as a phone and site-based technical support professional, and I'm telling you that absolutely none of your expertise about computers is relevant to cognitive science, artificial intelligence, or understanding what consciousness is.
But, hey, nice try. I was almost impressed by your credentials. Almost.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Christian7, posted 11-18-2005 5:16 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Christian7, posted 11-19-2005 10:23 AM crashfrog has replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 233 of 275 (261242)
11-19-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by crashfrog
11-18-2005 10:01 PM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
First of all Consciousness is a built in concept that everyone has internally, but do not have a word for. However Consciousness is a good word for it. You do not need computers to know what consciousness is, since sillicon and electricity will never produce consciousness, and neither can physical celliar organisms alone.
Also, Java is crap, and I know this for certain.
Lisp, I assume, but don't know for sure, is crap.
PHP is good. (I don't program in it but I know it.)
Also, Object Oriented Programming can simulate a neural network no?
What if I made a neuron class and a neuron manager class. On a super computer, would I not be able to simulate the workings of a physical neural system? Certianlly this simulated system would be able to do anything the real system could do, but virtualy. It could learn, because it IS a neural system, just a virtual one. Therefore, if physical neural systems can produce consciousness, I would imagine that a virtual neural system can produce consciousness, since you seem to deny that particles only act spatially in time. So then virtual spatial movements should be able to produce the same effect.
Besides that, I read alot of science articles, from the evolutionists side, and that is where I get most of my scientific knowledge. The only thing I disagree with is the Big Bang because it occurs at of no where, and the accidental appearance of the first cell. It is completley idiotic.
So, I know that computers have nothing to do with congnitive science, except of course, you learn about electromangetism, and conductors.
This message has been edited by Guidosoft, 11-19-2005 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by crashfrog, posted 11-18-2005 10:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by crashfrog, posted 11-19-2005 10:51 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 235 by nwr, posted 11-19-2005 10:57 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 11-21-2005 11:38 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 242 by Parasomnium, posted 11-29-2005 4:45 AM Christian7 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 234 of 275 (261246)
11-19-2005 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Christian7
11-19-2005 10:23 AM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
Also, Java is crap, and I know this for certain.
A C++ programmer is telling me that Java is crap? Please.
Lisp, I assume, but don't know for sure, is crap.
You don't even know what LISP is.
On a super computer, would I not be able to simulate the workings of a physical neural system?
Sure. Unfortunately to model a neural network of equivalent complexity to the human brain would take more computing power than is avaliable. And it's obviously not just the complexity of the physical connections; horses and whales, for instance, have brains of equivalent or larger size to humans.
Clearly the organization of neurons, as well as the capacity to be exposed to human culture, is necessary for the development of consciousness. I think the phenomenon of so-called "feral children" demonstrates the importance of exposure to human culture in the formation of awareness.
But there's nothing in your or my head that can't be modeled on a system of sufficient complexity; the only remaining question at that point is whether or not people like you circularly define "consciousness" in a way that specifically disallows computers to qualify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Christian7, posted 11-19-2005 10:23 AM Christian7 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 235 of 275 (261247)
11-19-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Christian7
11-19-2005 10:23 AM


Re: Opinion are extremely complex
However Consciousness is a good word for it. You do not need computers to know what consciousness is, since sillicon and electricity will never produce consciousness, and neither can physical celliar organisms alone.
You assert more than you can possibly know. This is unwise, and will get you into unnecessary arguments.
Lisp, I assume, but don't know for sure, is crap.
At least you admitted lack of knowledge there.
Also, Object Oriented Programming can simulate a neural network no?
Be careful with that kind of argument. When we simulate something, we only simulate certain aspects. Software simulations of neurons don't simulate their chemistry. They only simulate certain behaviors that the programmer has assumed are the important ones. But maybe those aren't the important ones after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Christian7, posted 11-19-2005 10:23 AM Christian7 has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 275 (261935)
11-21-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Christian7
11-19-2005 10:23 AM


Bots the way it will be
Guido writes:
I read alot of science articles, from the evolutionists side, and that is where I get most of my scientific knowledge.
PB writes:
I used to read a lot as well when I was your age, but I never got into science as much as you do! Do you think that artificial intelligence will ever mimic human behavior to an undectable degree?
The only thing I disagree with is the Big Bang because it occurs at of no where, and the accidental appearance of the first cell. It is completley idiotic.
PB writes:
How can the Big Bang be idiotic? What you mean is that you believe that the theory is idiotic...as in "how can something come from nothing?" God is the obvious and easy answer for believers, but if you wanna be a writer, you are gonna have to learn how the other half thinks!
You sound like another new member that we have....???. Check out some of ??? posts when you get the time!

Matt 10:39-40 "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me."Jesus Christ
Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Holy Spirit,speaking through the Apostle Paul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Christian7, posted 11-19-2005 10:23 AM Christian7 has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 237 of 275 (263233)
11-26-2005 10:17 AM


I win.
I win.

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by crashfrog, posted 11-26-2005 10:21 AM Christian7 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 238 of 275 (263237)
11-26-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Christian7
11-26-2005 10:17 AM


Re: I win.
Really? Cuz I see a whole lot of posts that you don't seem able to reply to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Christian7, posted 11-26-2005 10:17 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Christian7, posted 11-28-2005 8:47 PM crashfrog has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 239 of 275 (263936)
11-28-2005 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by crashfrog
11-26-2005 10:21 AM


Re: I win.
Well point them out and I'll reply to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by crashfrog, posted 11-26-2005 10:21 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Slim Jim, posted 11-29-2005 1:25 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 11-29-2005 2:35 AM Christian7 has replied

Slim Jim
Junior Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 05-06-2005


Message 240 of 275 (263986)
11-29-2005 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Christian7
11-28-2005 8:47 PM


Re: I win.
You neglected to reply to my post about the strong AI hypothesis. I'd be interested to see what evidence you have as to why we should discount this philosophical line of thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Christian7, posted 11-28-2005 8:47 PM Christian7 has not replied

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