You are.

I had to shorten up this whole topic. It was much longer and explained things in better detail before, I think.OK, So here goes:The brain is a muscle, or an organ (whichever). It is made up of tissue.
Tissue is made of cells.
Cells are made up of water, and organelles which are made up of mollecules. Cells also have veins and membrane, and its all a molecular wonder ok?Now, molecules are made up of atoms. ATOMS are made up of:
Electrons
Neutrons
ProtonsElectrons are leptons with an electric charge of one.
Protons are baryonic hadrons made up of 2 up quarks and 1 down quark.
An up quark has 2/3 positive charge. A down quark has a -1/3 charge.
The net charge of a proton is 1. Because 2/3+2/3 = 4/3. 4/3 + -1/3 = 3/3 = 1.
Neutrons, I believe, are also baryonic hadrons and they are composed of 2 down quarks and 1 up quark.2(-1/3) + 2/3 = 0 - The charge of a neutron.Messanger particles from quarks emit to other quarks and they touchy and feelly each other over you know what I'm sayin?Also, da quarks, have a short range force, called the strong force or strong neuclear force. They overpower the electromagnetic force to keep the protons together from pushing apart.OK, so all we have here is:
Particles move.
Particles move.
Particles hit other particles and turn into energy.
New particles come from energy as the higher mass particles decay into lesser mass particles.
Particles move.
Particles change position.
Particles notify other particles to move.
Particles move.Please tell me where they become conscious?This message has been edited by Guidosoft, 10-30-2005 08:37 PM

RESPOND! NOW!This message has been edited by Guidosoft, 10-23-2005 08:39 PM

And just where should this go? I've actually gone to the trouble of reading it but you'll have to make that decision.Before you do that you might want to cut the length by about a factor of two and make it clear what your point is?Is it simply: "I think therefore I am" and "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy" ?While you are making that clear you might tighten up your logic. It seems an endless run of assertions with no good reason why anyone should believe you but I'll let it go even with that since others will point it out to you.PS If you demand a repsonse again it'll be a much longer time coming.This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-23-2005 08:47 PM

Hey, Guido! Glad to see that you are still thinking and philosophyzing. Ned is right, though. Your topic, while interesting, is way too long for a topic starter. I may e-mail you with my personal opinion about it, but as for EvC it needs to be more concise and brief. Think of it like a letter to the editor in a large newspaper...They will edit long letters themselves and will never publish ones as long as your O.P. BTW How is school, Mr. Arcadia?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 10-30-2005 11:47 PM

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OK, I will breifify it, but I can't do it right now. Please don't shut the topic, I am still gona work on it.Hi AdminPhat, glad to see you too, and it's ARBIA!!!!
LOL: Guido Arbia!OK, I will check my email.Why is my topic too long though? Does it not make sense btw?
I thought it made sense. Am I thinking erashionally?

Did it.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

You can elaborate on your explanation as people ask questions. You are more likely to retain your audience that way. Google "emergent properties".This wikipedia article looks pretty good:
Emergence - WikipediaBasically complex phenomenon can arise from simple constituents in surprising ways.

Complexity is an illusion. How does consciousness occur? It is not of the complexity of moving particles is it?Each particle is individual, and operates individually. Do you think that a particle on the left side of your brain (an elementary particle) is aware of another particle that in 10 centimeters away? I don't think so.These complex mechanisms can be broken down to just individual particles. They just happen to interact with each other is such a chain way that they create the illusion of complexity.What makes us conscious is my question.

I'm pretty sure that no one has a good definition for consciousness. That it is an emergent property of our brains cells is pretty accepted I also think.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 10-30-2005 10:08 PM

Guidosoft,I know you're not a scientist, let alone a cognitive scientist. I agree with NosyNed that consciousness is not a "thing".Really understanding emergence and really understanding consciousness takes a lot of hard work. Are you up for some reading? There's quite a bit of research on consciousness and visual experience. The things that we see... are strange. Are you willing to do some difficult reading and to consider some interesting but difficult observations about human consciousness?If you are, I can try and work through some of this stuff with you. But it's some hard work; so I don't want either of us to spend our time on it unless you really want to think hard about this stuff.Let me know!Ben

Hi Guidosoft.You picked a difficult one there. As NosyNed said in Message 10, nobody has a good definition of consciousness, and different people disagree on what it is.In any case, it is an area of active research. I would expect we will know a lot more in a few years time. Of course, I could be mistaken in that expectation.I agree with you, that consciousness is not easily explained by the motions of elementary particles. I would not try to explain it that way. However, there are a lot of interesting processes going on in a person (including in the brain). These processes seem to be gathering information about the world, and using that information to manage behavior.I can't tell you how these information processes produce consciousness, partly because we don't yet have a clear definition of consciousness. But I do think those information processes are where to look.Some people make the argument that consciousness comes directly from God by means of some special intervention. Personally, I think that's an unwise argument to make. For if scientists do explain consciousness, that would destroy much of your reason for believing in God. I would think it better to say that God created the natural world, and consciousness arose out of the workings of natureMy own view is that consciousness evolved. In my opinion, we can see evidence of some degree of consciousness in other animals such as dogs, monkeys, even kangaroos.I'm sure that I have not answered your questions, or at least not to your satisfaction. But I hope I have made a start. Now I will wait for your comments.

Yes I am and I would.I have tried to look for scientific claims of consciousness but I haven't gotten many results.

So then, do you suppose that if the human mind became complex enough to imagine in perfect detail anything that he wishes to imagine, and that he imagines a working brain, then that brain is conscious? Is not information entering that imagined brain, since it is all being mediated by the imaginaner's brain?I don't think so.Also, I don't believe that God does everything. I believe that God created the natural world and let in run. However, I do not think that consciousness arose from matter, there must be something seperate.I do not believe science can explain consciousness.Also, my idea of consciousness is the human ability to experience something. Not calculate sight, but experience sight. A robot can recieve visual input, and process it, and react based on it, and store it in memeory, and later react to it, but do you think it is conscious?How can information being processed account for consciousness when there is no such thing as interpreted information?Example: A computer can read sound waves, and produce some numbers from those sound waves. A human can hear sound from those sound waves.Sound Waves are NOT what we hear, we interpret it, and than here that.
But, how can we here the interpretation, when after the information is interpreted it is still particles, that can be intepreted as any other thing. What decides that as soon as our brain stores information in a specific format in memory, that it is seen by the person?

TTYL Guido...gotta go to workThis message has been edited by Phat, 10-31-2005 03:03 PM