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Author | Topic: So-Called "Persecution Against Christians": | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Even if that were true - and I would disagree - there is certainly a valid comparison. Firstly, as I have pointed out the exact same laws are involved, with the exact same penalties prescribed. In both cases you rely on Biblical "interpretations" which seem to be clearly incorrect to justify your behaviour. If I cannot judge your "interpretation", then how can it be that I can judge the segregationist's "interpretation" ? This is not a new point Faith. It has been made time and again, and your only response is that you believe that the discrimination you desire is "right". No doubt the segregationists believed that the discrimination they desired was "right" so the only difference comes down to your personal opinion. Indeed they would even deny that they were bigots, arguing that they wanted only to keep the races separate and that any ill-effects were incidental. You don't even gave that excuse. If you can offer no valid reason why you should not be treated as the segregationists were - a treatment you fully endorse - then you are a hypocrite plain and simple. Especially as that endorsement would make you every bit as much a "Nazi" as anyone here. (Perhaps more so since the Nazis persecuted homosexuals in the same way as they persecuted Jews)
quote: Nor is it hard to show that your position is not Biblical. It has been done. Not that that is even relevant to the law.
quote: If you were talking about Church weddings I would agree that your Church has every right to refuse to hold marriage ceremonies for gay couples - or to refuse to remarry divorcees for that matter. But I see no reason why a Christian would have to deny a gay couple the legal benefits of marriage, and you have not offered one. Surely that is a purely secular matter that is rightly deferred to the secular authorities - at least by Christian teaching.
quote: In other words your entire complaint against gay marriage is that it deprives you of the "right" to discriminate against gays. Hardly a noble cause.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I meant that it would be easier for us Christians not to fight it, but just go along to get along. I know what you meant, I was turning it around on purpose. Just because something is difficult doesn't make it right and it doesn't make you brave or worthy for doing the work to oppress others even as laws are passed to inhibit you.
Resisting the law costs us. Yes, it costs all lawbreakers. THAT'S THE POINT. The reason the laws exist, is because True Christian behaviour costs US and you won't even admit it!
Of course if YOU insist on fighting us on the basis of the new law, suing us etc., We've been fighting for ages Faith, because our livelihoods and lives depended on it. You only seem to care so much because you are finally starting to lose (don't worry though, Christians find lots of ways to be lawfully shitty to homosexuals still).
suing us etc., For damages you caused us. You just don't, nay can't, get it.
it will also be the Christians who suffer. Well the True Christians are dying off faster than they are being replaced so it won't be for long. Homosexuals have been suffering for the entire history of your nation, much worse than a few people getting sued. They'd be humiliated and denied healthcare and jobs and housing. Those are more important than providing wedding services.
Those who share the biblical view I'm talking about will not give in so you can sue us and drive us out of business to your heart's content. Thanks, we will. Enjoy revelling in the self inflicted martyrdom. But don't think we're the bullies when you are the one causing damages and getting sued for it. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 393 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: I guess I COULD wait until the gestapo come to my door before saying anything, but it's always best to object to an unjust law before it comes to that. Too funny. When you find an unjust law please feel free to speak out against it. If you can make a case that has any merit you may even persuade people to change the law. But stop crying about being persecuted when it is YOU that are breaking the laws.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes:
I guess I COULD wait until the gestapo come to my door before saying anything, but it's always best to object to an unjust law before it comes to that. And lucky for you, you live in a democratic country with rights of free speech and the ability to object to, and vote down, laws that you believe are unjust. Just don't abuse those rights - and in the process make yourself look really stupid - by comparing your imaginary sufferings with the real suffering of those that died in the holocaust. Or on second thoughts, carry on, it exposes your argument for what they are - utter shite. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes, it costs all lawbreakers. THAT'S THE POINT. The reason the laws exist, is because True Christian behaviour costs US and you won't even admit it! As you yourself said, yes it costs all lawbreakers. Homosexual acts break GOD's law, we're only breaking a human law that itself violates God's law. I'm quite aware that you suffer from all this, but that doesn't make you right about the legal situation. You are still in the wrong and now supporting the punishment of people who follow God's law makes you all the more in the wrong. I grant that you are in a very difficult position. I don't know what the solution is, but punishing God isn't going to help you in the end. It would be nice to find a way to help you with your being bullied without having laws that merely turn the suffering against Christians, but I don't know what that would amount to. I can agree that nobody should bully or mistreat you, of course. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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Homosexual acts break GOD's law, we're only breaking a human law that itself violates God's law. Whether or not it breaks God's law is up to God and acting homosexuals should only be answerable to God, not to you and bakers. Breaking human laws makes you answerable to humans and God, since the President that signed that law was put into place by God.
I'm quite aware that you suffer from all this, but that doesn't make you right about the legal situation. My suffering doesn't, the Constitition dictates that I'm right about the legal situation.
I grant that you are in a very difficult position. I don't know what the solution is, but punishing God isn't going to help you in the end. I'm not punishing God. I *can't* punish God. God may punish me, but that's business between me and Him and is absolutely nothing to do with you. Your judgement on this matter is irrelevant. For God does not show favouritism.
It costs a lot for a homosexual to convert to Christ, and that is the only solution I know of for your dilemma. I'm not a homosexual and I married a woman, so I guess I'm a little more safe, eh?
Otherwise once you have legal power you can punish us to a pulp, maybe mitigate some of your suffering that way, but God's people are not going to go away. The demographics disagree. Most people that agree with you are your age, and becoming less and less relevant to the legislature who are increasingly rejecting your perspective. The young 'ens are leaving the faith entirely in droves, and those that stay are increasingly rejecting the 'homosexuals should be treated poorly' gospel.
This is a supernatural thing and the more Christians suffer in the world the more the tribe grows. I guess God's power is failing then.
Or maybe the Rapture will occur soon and we'll be out of your life for good anyway. *fingers crossed*
I found out recently that homosexual acts are the only sin described in the Old Testament books of the Law that are called "abominations." Not heterosexual adultery, not murder, none of the others, even sins punishable by death. You found recently? Presumably someone told you, rather than you know, reading the damned thing.
quote: Lev 7, KJV
quote: {most animals, then} Deu 7, KJV
quote: Deu 12, KJV
quote: Deu 17, KJV
quote: Deu 17 KJV
quote: Levi 18, KJV.
quote: Lev 19, KJV
quote: Psa 14 and 53, KJV
quote: Deu 18, KJV
quote: Deu 23, KJV
quote: Deu 24., KJV
quote: Deu 25, KJV
quote: Deu 27, KJV
quote: Pro 3, KJV
quote: Pro 6, KJV
quote: Pro 8, KJV
quote: Pro 11, KJV
quote: Pro 11, KJV
quote: Pro 12, KJV
quote: Pro 15. KJV
quote: Pro 16, KJV
quote: Pro 16, KJV
quote: Pro 17, KJV
quote: Isa 1, KJV So yeah.
Not heterosexual adultery, Lechery and lust is an abomination. Lying with your neighbours wife is an abomination. Try again.
not murder Unless murder is NOT WICKED, you are wrong again.
That's a very severe judgment. As severe as it is for bringing a lobster to church, fraud, lying, lust, laziness....
Otherwise the term "abomination" is usually reserved for idolatries that involve demons. Wrong.
It makes me wonder if there is a demonic element in homosexuality. I wonder if there is a demonic element to your ignoring God's word and promulgating lies about it. Oh wait, that's an abomination too. Welcome to the club, Faith.
Some elements in the LGBT arena involve feelings that amount to obsessions, like that feeling of HAVING to cross-dress to get relief from some kind of psychgological pressure. Like lecherously grabbing women by the pussy, or lying about lecherously grabbing women by the pussy. You can believe what you like, but when you insist that because there is a 'demon influence' in my clothing preferences I should be refused a drink by a bartender, lifesaving intervention from a doctor.....then your wickedness is harming me and you are being a bully and persecuting me. If I retaliate by asking a duly elected or appointed official to determine how this damage can be compensated financially, I am not persecuting you. Indeed if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. Or whinge and complain and claim martyrdom and persecution for your wicked acts and your victimising others. Whatever floats your boat. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Their numbers were always small, but that was about to change. Across the street from my junior high school in Santa Ana was a Four-Square church. All any of us knew about it was "They believe really strange stuff!" Half a decade later, one of their members, Chuck Smith, split off and founded his own small church on the outskirts of Santa Ana and Costa Mesa (ironically in a region that half a century before that was known as "Gospel Swamp"). Then the Jesus Freak Movement of circa 1970 hit in which hippies burned out on drugs instead became "hooked on Jesus" (a ubiquitous bumper sticker of the time). Overnight, the membership of these fundamentalist churches exploded. A member of this forum, I forget who, once explained what happened next with their theology. Now, originally you had to study Scripture all your life in order to understand it and there was a comprehensive study plan in place to support that. But now you had the vast majority of your congregation sitting there with no experience in studying Scripture. Empty vessels. How do you fill them? According to that forum member, that is when the life-long comprehensive study plan went flying out the window. Instead, the churches came up with sound-bites. The traditional Baptist view (many of these churches came from a Baptist tradition) was that they agreed to disagree because your life-long study informed what you believed. Now with these newcomers, the church had to dictate to them what they needed to believe, then cherry-pick passages to feed to them and instruct them into how to interpret those passages correctly -- even Faith has told us how you need to be properly instructed in how to interpret the Bible. Thus those churches became close-mindedly dogmatic. I've heard a very different history than the one you heard. I somehow managed to be unaware of the Jesus Freaks during their heyday, I guess because I was in Northern California and they mostly in Southern California. What I've heard is that most churches wouldn't accept the scruffy and often barefoot hippies unless they cleaned up to come to services, and that Chuck Smith was being the true Christian by not making an issue of such superficial things. I think that is probably true. Smith wasn't a mere member of the Foursquare church but its pastor, and I've understood that it was a very small church, he didn't leave it, he merely welcomed the hippies into it which made it grow. As pastor of a Foursquare church, which was founded by Aimee Semple MacPherson, he was part of the Charismatic Movement that taught speaking in tongues and supernatural gifts like prophecy and healing and miracles for today just as existed in the early church. That's how the Jesus Freaks got taken in that direction, which I believe to be a false direction (I certainly believe that God still works supernaturally as always, but on a case-to-case basis and not through personal gifts as in the early church). But for the most part they got good biblical instruction, and over time cleaned up their act, many going on to be pastors themselves. Calvary Chapel is the denomination that eventually grew out of the Jesus Freaks and they are known for their strong biblical preaching, so I don't think it can be argued that their spiritual food was at the level of sound bites, although there may have been some of that in the early days. There are lingering effects from those days that some lament and I agree with them, such as the general change from serious hymn music to guitar-driven repetitive ditties, the general habit of dressing down for church even if not as far down as the hippies, the continuing influence of the Charismatic Movement, and so on. But that movement was a genuine supernatural revival nevertheless. Apparently you were right in the thick of it though personally unconverted. You seem to be a tad obsessed with the Jesus Freaks. But despite the superficial problems I mentioned they eventually grew into genuine well-taught Christians and all you are really complaining about is the fact that there were so many of them around you so that you kept having to hear their street preaching, which was perfectly orthodox. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
How I discovered the abomination description was from hearing a talk by ex-Lesbian converted Christian Rosaria Butterfield after which an audience member said "But isn't homosexuality called an abomination in the Bible?" Rosaria merely answered that yes it is certainly a sin, but I looked it up and found out that it is called an abomination and no other sin is in that part of the Bible that spells out the Law. Except the sins involving idolatrous religions, which I thought I made clear enough, not personal sins such as sexual sins. Your list is all related to religious sins, not sexual sins and the like. My point was that the religious idolatrous sins involve demons which are termed "abominations" throughout the Bible. But homosexuality is the only personal sin called an abomination.
But as you can see I deleted that discussion because I really don't want to get into all the side trips. Too bad I left it up so long. I did think you said you were homosexual and some things you said implied your "wife" was a man. Sorry if I got that wrong. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I found out recently that homosexual acts are the only sin described in the Old Testament books of the Law that are called "abominations." There are number of falsehoods in your description of what the Bible says, but I'll just pick on this easy one. From Proverbs:
quote: Of course I did not know what I would find when I checked the Bible. But instead of making claims, I looked this up. It did take several minutes. Of course, one might claim that the word abomination used in the KJV is not correct. If one follows that line of reasoning, then one finds the word translated as abomination with respect to homosexuality used 103 times in the Bible. It applies to things like usury, and oppressing the needy (see Ezekiel 18:6-13) and idolatry. As a final examples Genesis 43:32 states that eating with Israelites is an abomination for Egyptians.Deut. 25:15-16 states that using uncalibrated weights in commerce is an abomination. Yes it does apply to things like witchcraft, idolatry, but what you "recently found out" once again turns out to be completely wrong. Lots of things, some quite mundane, and some profane all turn out to be abominations as described in the Bible using the exact same terms used to describe homosexuality. ABE: I posted this before I saw Modulus post and your response. But given that you characterized all of his cites as not being personal sins, I think my addition is still relevant. Even your attempted correction is just plain wrong. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I did think you said you were homosexual and some things you said implied your "wife" was a man. Sorry if I got that wrong. I'm bisexual, as is my wife. That's probably what confused you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh well, I should have known. I did say the Books of the Law, meaning the books of Moses. I didn't mention the passage in Proverbs because it's in a different category. Yes I knew it was there. I'm still talking about the Books of the Law where God spells out His comandments in detail. The Proverbs passage describes special cases the Lord also abominates. What I said still stands. Homosexuality is treated as a special personal sin in the context of the Law. No other sexual sin, and there are lots of them, is called by that term.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So your wife is a bisexual woman and not a bisexual man?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So your wife is a bisexual woman and not a bisexual man? Correct.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Mod writes: I'm bisexual, as is my wife. That's probably what confused you. I suspect she's just self-combusted.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: All the sins in Leviticus 18 are called abominations in Leviticus 18:27 and 18:29 Is reading even one whole chapter of the Bible beyond you ?
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