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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 177 of 887 (787614)
07-19-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
07-18-2016 3:46 PM


Re: 2 Pence Worth
NoNukes writes:
Did I give a reason for considering their votes not to be rational?
You didn't give a reason. That's why I question how rational your statement is. You're the one who seems to be making a silly assumption that " it wasn't the rational minds who wanted out of the EU".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2016 3:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by frako, posted 07-19-2016 5:27 PM ringo has replied
 Message 179 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2016 9:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 181 of 887 (787677)
07-20-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by frako
07-19-2016 5:27 PM


Re: 2 Pence Worth
frako writes:
Well given that they voted to pay the same tarifs to trade with the eu, but not get a voice in how the eu market is run, over paying tarifs geting some of the money back and having a vote on how the eu market is run. My guess is that they where not so rational.
That means that their reasoning was different from yours, not that they were irrational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by frako, posted 07-19-2016 5:27 PM frako has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 182 of 887 (787678)
07-20-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by frako
07-19-2016 5:27 PM


Re: 2 Pence Worth
Removed double post.
Edited by ringo, : Site hung up for ten minutes and didn't finish posting - or did it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by frako, posted 07-19-2016 5:27 PM frako has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 887 (787679)
07-20-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by NoNukes
07-19-2016 9:25 PM


Re: 2 Pence Worth
NoNukes writes:
Except that you did not question me.
Are you deliberately being evasive?
Okay, I'll question you now: Why did you claim that "it wasn't the rational minds who wanted out of the EU"? Notice the "Why" at the beginning and the question mark at the end. That is officially a question. Can I get an answer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2016 9:25 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 190 of 887 (793081)
10-20-2016 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by caffeine
10-19-2016 3:09 PM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:
EU law can override national law...
That's what I said.
caffeine writes:
... but the Commission doesn't introduce law at a whim. Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments.
So it's worse than I thought. Only "most" law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament. And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by caffeine, posted 10-19-2016 3:09 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2016 1:40 PM ringo has replied
 Message 195 by caffeine, posted 10-23-2016 6:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 887 (793127)
10-21-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
10-20-2016 1:40 PM


Re: Tribalism
Tangle writes:
The thing is, the Human Rights Act is a UK law, we adopted the European Convention on Human Rights into our own legislation in 1998 but we've been using it since 1950.
It isn't just about Human Rights, though, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2016 1:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2016 12:43 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 197 of 887 (793190)
10-23-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by caffeine
10-23-2016 6:19 AM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:
You said the European Commission can override national governments.
You're making more of a distinction between the Commission and the Parliament than I am. Personally, I don't care whether it's the left hand or the right hand that's doing the oppressing.
caffeine writes:
All law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament.
Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments.
Some law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and 100% of the member-state governments.
You left out this bit:
quote:
And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on.
But only in "some" cases. You think that's okay then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by caffeine, posted 10-23-2016 6:19 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by caffeine, posted 10-24-2016 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 199 of 887 (793236)
10-24-2016 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by caffeine
10-24-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:
I thought you were supporting Britain's exit from the EU, but it seems not, because almost half of voters wanted to remain - we can't trample on them, can we?
I have always thought that the EU was a bad idea and I think the voters made the right decision - democracy over economics, as I have said before.
Democracy does follow the will of the majority but it is the duty of the majority not to trample on minorities. Those who voted for Brexit are not trampling on the rights of those who voted against it. They're choosing local concerns over international concerns. We have similar situations here in Canada all the time with our federal system.
Federations are always in danger of secession and/or collapse. Czechoslovakia came apart. Yugoslavia came apart. The Soviet Union came apart. The USA fought a civil war and narrowly avoided coming apart. There's no reason to think the Holy EU Empire will be any different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by caffeine, posted 10-24-2016 12:43 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 2:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 887 (793363)
10-26-2016 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 2:49 PM


Re: Tribalism
NoNukes writes:
... this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want.
How is that different from any other situation? There would be no point to having a vote if everybody got what they wanted.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 2:49 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 267 of 887 (840002)
09-21-2018 1:58 PM


Britain's "plan' to exit from the EU seems to be something like Quebec's plan to exit from Canada: keep all of the benefits and ditch all of the responsibilities. Hard to get agreement on a plan like that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by 1.61803, posted 09-26-2018 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 274 of 887 (840308)
09-26-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by 1.61803
09-26-2018 3:28 PM


~1.6 writes:
A Canadian friend of mine told me the reason the Quebec referendum didn't pass is because they let the wrong Canadians vote.
He's from Alberta btw.
During the first referendum campaign in 1980, a businessman from Alberta paid for billboards all across Canada that said, "My Canada includes Quebec."
My response was - and still is - that my Canada barely includes Ontario.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by 1.61803, posted 09-26-2018 3:28 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 303 of 887 (843244)
11-15-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by PaulK
11-15-2018 5:55 AM


Re: Three gone already
Pressie writes:
Their only realistic long-term deal that can work is for Britain to abandon Northern Ireland.
They should have done that a century ago.
ABE: Replied to the wrong poster somehow.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2018 5:55 AM PaulK has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 364 of 887 (845643)
12-18-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by caffeine
12-18-2018 3:27 AM


Re: Even more Brexit shenanigans
caffeine writes:
This is the basis of the British constitution, that the Prime Minister must be able to command a majority in the House of Commons.
That certainly is not the case in Canada. We have had minority governments fairly often and some people would argue that they are better than majority governments.
As for a non-confidence vote against the Prime Minister, that would not be done in our Parliament. It would have to wait for a scheduled leadership review outside Parliament - and anybody lobbying against the Prime Minister would be subject to party discipline, including expulsion from the caucus.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 3:27 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by NosyNed, posted 12-18-2018 11:43 AM ringo has replied
 Message 368 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 12:59 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 367 of 887 (845648)
12-18-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by NosyNed
12-18-2018 11:43 AM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
NosyNed writes:
If there was a minority government and the totality of the non-goverment parties voted against a confidence motion (like the budget, or an unspecific motion of confidence or I-don't-know-what-else) then the governor general will collapse the current government.
Yes, but that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the PM's own party voting non-confidence. Here, that would not be done in Parliament.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by NosyNed, posted 12-18-2018 11:43 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 1:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 370 of 887 (845660)
12-18-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by caffeine
12-18-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
caffeine writes:
The Tory party's no confidence vote was their own thing outside Parliament.
Then why did PaulK call it a "Parliamentary" vote of non-confidence in Message 360? Surely what you're talking about would be a party vote or a caucus vote.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 1:07 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by PaulK, posted 12-18-2018 1:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 374 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 1:45 PM ringo has replied

  
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