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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Taq
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Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(5)
Message 187 of 887 (792965)
10-17-2016 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by LamarkNewAge
07-21-2016 12:26 PM


Re: Recession, inflation, and (no shock) quantitative easing schemes happening as we type
LamarkNewAge writes:
The British economy it poised to shrink with all the (recent) anti-immigration sentiment probably leading to actual slowdowns in immigration - a major source of the economic growth.
That is something I wish many of my fellow citizens here in the US would understand. Not only do immigrants grow the economy, they also help to stabilize social programs for the elderly baby boomers. When you have more pensioners than workers it won't be pretty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-21-2016 12:26 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 9:19 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 192 by Diomedes, posted 10-20-2016 2:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 200 of 887 (793257)
10-24-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Diomedes
10-20-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Recession, inflation, and (no shock) quantitative easing schemes happening as we type
Diomedes writes:
Everybody is aware of that.
Not in the US of A. The Republican line is that immigrants are a net burden on social systems.
2) The corporate big wigs who have been systematically destroying the middle class of this country to line their own pockets have been using rhetoric to divert attention away from their scheme. And they do so by blaming the immigrants, who are 'stealing American jobs'. Because the Mexican family picking fruit in the field took your manufacturing job away and moved it to China.
I grew up in a rural area where migrant workers are common. Whenever I hear people claiming that immigrants are taking our jobs all I want to do is ask them how they lost their job hoeing beets or tasseling corn. It is pretty preposterous. It's not as if Java coders are flooding over the southern border.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 202 of 887 (793323)
10-25-2016 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 2:49 PM


Re: Tribalism
NoNukes writes:
Perhaps that is semantically true, but this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. The minority in this case is a substantial portion of the population. Just short of fifty percent. If trampling is the wrong word, then certainly "giving short shrift to" would not be out of place.
At what point do you accept a majority win as a majority win? 55%? 51%? What rationale are you using?
I am sure Al Gore would like to know the answer to that question.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 339 of 887 (845163)
12-12-2018 5:36 PM


No Brexit?
Is No Brexit even on the table at this point. I don't follow UK politics that closely, but it would seem that given the slim margins for the Brexit victory and the obvious clusterf*** that will be caused by Brexit, is the UK public starting to rethink their vote?

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 5:47 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 342 by PaulK, posted 12-13-2018 12:17 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 354 of 887 (845221)
12-13-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by PaulK
12-13-2018 12:17 AM


Re: No Brexit?
PaulK writes:
No Brexit is on the table in that the Government has the power to back out of Brexit. Whether Parliament has the will to do that is another matter. But at this stage the alternatives are so awful I wouldn’t rule it out. May’s deal is looking dead. A No Deal Brexit isn’t any more popular. Going back to the drawing board and starting again isn’t much better, either.
From what I have seen, the EU seems to be taking the "take it or leave it" path. It would be in the EU's best interest to make Brexit as painful as possible to keep the UK in within the EU.

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Taq
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Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 408 of 887 (847077)
01-17-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Diomedes
01-17-2019 2:32 PM


Re: May's government survives no confidence vote
Diomedes writes:
Now does that mean that there is no provision for another referendum? Not at all. And I certainly don't think it is undemocratic to ask for one. The issue is one of perception and politics.
There is certainly the danger of looking like you are having endless referendums until the vote goes the way they want. However, I don't think that is the case here. Rather, people can now see what leaving really means and what impact it will have so this justifies a new referendum, at least in this Yanks eyes. It's kind of like that moment after the tattoo artist has outlined the art on your arm and has the needle ready to go, and then asks one more time, "Are you sure???".

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 Message 407 by Diomedes, posted 01-17-2019 2:32 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Diomedes, posted 01-18-2019 9:32 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 413 of 887 (847142)
01-18-2019 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Diomedes
01-18-2019 9:32 AM


Re: May's government survives no confidence vote
Diomedes writes:
It's a tricky issue no matter how you slice it. There is already rumblings from Leave advocates of what they are calling the 'Brexit Betrayal'. i.e. an assertion that the government is ignoring the will of the people or are purposely screwing things up just to get the outcome they originally wanted. I personally don't think that is the case. As mentioned, when Governments screw up, it is usually due to outright incompetence and political shenanigans as opposed to some Illuminati conspiracy. And considering the circumstances, if parliament is deadlocked, isn't placing the vote back to the people the democratic thing to do? I think the bigger issue is even if another referendum is considered, what the question would be would also be endlessly debated to the point that it might make the referendum non-viable.
I see a lot of truth in what you write. Even if I am not familiar with the specifics of UK politics there are still political truths shared between Western democracies.
I see two ways out of this, one of which may not even be legal since I don't know the specifics of how UK law works. First, they hold a vote with the same Brexit question as the first vote. That would seem the fairest.
Second, Parliament refuses to exit the EU and faces the voters at the polls (would this be legal?). MP's could be honest and simply say that they can't be part of seriously damage the economy of the UK and will not vote for a Brexit deal. The next step is owning the political fall out.

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Taq
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Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 491 of 887 (848601)
02-11-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Percy
02-10-2019 12:51 PM


Re: Another Referendum
Percy writes:
This is just the "There will always be wars so no course of action is better than another" argument. I reject the premise. For example, a united Europe means Germany is a productive contributing member of a community instead of an engine of discord and war. Some actions are inherently better than others because they have better outcomes that are foreseeable.
I would argue that people in First World countries have more to lose than at any time in history. People don't want to go more than 1 day without an internet connection, for crying out loud. We depend on so much infrastructure for our day to day lives and luxuries, and a war would rip all of those things away. People don't want to live like they did in pre-WWII Europe, much less Europe during and right after WWII.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 596 of 887 (852821)
05-17-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Diomedes
05-17-2019 8:05 AM


Re: Labour-Tory Brexit talks fail with no compromise
Diomedes writes:
And on a side note, apparently Theresa May indicated that if she loses the next Brexit plan vote, she has promised to set a timetable for her successor.
That should be entertaining. I can't see how any Brexit plan is going to be palatable to the British public, so May seems to be saying, "Fine, let's see you do better".
I don't see anyway around another general vote on Brexit. It's one thing to vote for Brexit in the abstract, and a whole different thing to see the real ramifications of Brexit. Government incompetence is just the cherry on top.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Diomedes, posted 05-17-2019 8:05 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Diomedes, posted 05-17-2019 2:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 598 of 887 (852835)
05-17-2019 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Diomedes
05-17-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Labour-Tory Brexit talks fail with no compromise
Diomedes writes:
Now if Boris or Gove take the helm, I doubt they would push for another referendum. Boris seems hell bent on no deal, so my suspicion is he would just be all bravado and tell the EU that if they don't agree to a different deal, he will leave with no deal.
Stupid question . . . if May steps down would this result in new elections, or can a new PM be appointed by the ruling coalition without an election?

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Taq
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Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 603 of 887 (853197)
05-23-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by Percy
05-23-2019 10:52 AM


Re: What Now?
Percy writes:
Viewed from afar and through the filter of American reporting, May seems a politician of honesty, integrity, determination and extraordinary persistence who sincerely believed she could shepard Britain through the intricacies of Brexit. In retrospect maybe it was too impossible an undertaking for anyone.
Also through American eyes . . .
I would say that May is competent, but not extraordinary. I think it would have taken a once-in-a-generation leader to get Brexit through. Brexit is a case of the public not fully understanding the ramifications of what they were voting for, and it quickly became unpalatable once it was understood. The border in Ireland is a massive hornet's nest all on its own without getting into the economic fallout.
May is simply doing what the voters had voted for and being punished for it.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 650 of 887 (854864)
06-13-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by Diomedes
06-13-2019 2:34 PM


Re: Boris Johnson leads in first ballot for PM
YES!!!!
It's payback time for all those times the Brits laughed at us Yanks for electing Trump. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong, you were laughing . . .

https://assets.lbc.co.uk/2016/33/boris-johnson-3-1471423733-view-1.jpg
[/img]-->
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Diomedes, posted 06-13-2019 2:34 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 652 by Diomedes, posted 06-13-2019 7:02 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 681 of 887 (858783)
07-23-2019 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by jar
07-23-2019 8:28 AM


Re: Boris Johnson is new PM
jar writes:
Worry not. He will make England Great Again!
What about Wales, Scotland, and N. Ireland? I'm thinking N. Ireland, and Ireland proper, aren't going to be too happy at the end of this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by jar, posted 07-23-2019 8:28 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by jar, posted 07-23-2019 7:17 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 682 of 887 (858784)
07-23-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by Diomedes
07-23-2019 8:07 AM


Re: Boris Johnson is new PM
Diomedes writes:
Now comes the interesting part: how will he fix Brexit? Not sure he even knows.
He will probably adopt his predecessor's policy and just repeat irrelevant facts:
"Brexit means Brexit."--Theresa May

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Diomedes, posted 07-23-2019 8:07 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9092
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 687 of 887 (858962)
07-26-2019 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 685 by Diomedes
07-26-2019 9:24 AM


Re: So now what?
Diomedes writes:
Who is going to blink?
PM Johnson may not blink, but Parliament will. The EU has major leverage with the Irish border, and I expect they will use it to the fullest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by Diomedes, posted 07-26-2019 9:24 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by Diomedes, posted 07-27-2019 11:52 AM Taq has not replied

  
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