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Author | Topic: PC Gone Too Far | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
.yet, this memorial to the fallen Confederate soldiers is somehow being construed, by even folks here in EvC of all places, as an evil thing and therefore should be destroyed. I can recall a single comment from a poster saying that the monument in question should be destroyed. AZPaul said something like that early on, but I have not and I don't recall ringo making such a statement either. Percy is complaining about the monument being either damaged during the move or being put away out of sight. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
If they can move it to the Cave Hill Cemetery safely, fine.
- xongsmith, 5.7d
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If they can move it to the Cave Hill Cemetery safely, fine. Wikipedia has documented a number of changes to the status of the monument during our discussion here. The latest is that the statute stays put until a new site is chosen.
quote: Description of the monument.
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
It's not an evil thing in and of itself. It's a monument to an evil thing. It's like a "tribute" to John Wayne Gacy. ... this memorial to the fallen Confederate soldiers is somehow being construed, by even folks here in EvC of all places, as an evil thing and therefore should be destroyed. I, for one, have not suggested destroying anything.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2477 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
ringo writes: It isn't a discussion of whether it "should" be described as genocide. The fact is that it has been described as genocide. We don't have people vociferously denying that it was genocide. We're mostly past denial. Actually, you do have people denying it, and it hasn't yet made your government's list of genocides.
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: Do you think that the Aboriginal slave cultures were guilty of genocide? Quite possibly they were. What does that have to do with anything? Does that justify us committing genocide? Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime. Therefore, we could see how culturecide (genocide to you) against enslaving aboriginal groups could be justified. Back more on topic. In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world. BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
Sez you. Reference, please.
Actually, you do have people denying it.... bluegenes writes:
The North didn't set out to destroy the Southern culture, only one aspect of it.
Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime. bluegenes writes:
I have not suggested destroying anything.
In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world. bluegenes writes:
YECs are not a culture.
BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2477 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: ringo writes: It isn't a discussion of whether it "should" be described as genocide. The fact is that it has been described as genocide. We don't have people vociferously denying that it was genocide. We're mostly past denial. Actually, you do have people denying it, and it hasn't yet made your government's list of genocides. Sez you. Reference, please. It's not on your government's list, and there's plenty of discussion about it, and you certainly do have people "vociferously denying that it was genocide" and people denying that there was a "cultural genocide", and debating what, if anything, "cultural genocide" is.
http://news.nationalpost.com/...r-war-crimes-prosecutor-says Slot138 Daftar 10 Situs Slot Resmi Slot Online Pragmatic Play menawarkan game slot populer dengan RTP Live Slot Gacor Terpercaya Gampang Menang. You'll find plenty of vociferous denial in the comments on the articles, and your museum of human rights, like your government, has yet to acknowledge this "genocide". Yet the case for genocide of at least some Amerindian groups in North America is far better than any case that could be made for its rapidly expanding historical African population.
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime. The North didn't set out to destroy the Southern culture, only one aspect of it. The North would hardly be practising culturecide on any aspects of culture shared by the two, and it was certainly an important aspect. The transatlantic slave traders weren't deliberately destroying any aspects of any western and central African cultures.
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world. I have not suggested destroying anything. You seem to be in two minds on the subject. For example:
ringo writes: I've been consistent on that: no memorials to the SS, no memorials to Confederates, no memorials to Saddam, no memorials to serial killers, etc. It's difficult to see how that could be achieved without destroying memorials.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2477 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
ringo writes: bluegenes writes: BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians? YECs are not a culture. Why not?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
So the definition of genocide isn't as cut and dried as you've been claiming it is. There is a controversy. There are people besides me who are saying that our treatment of the aboriginal people was (is) genocide. It's not on your government's list, and there's plenty of discussion about it, and you certainly do have people "vociferously denying that it was genocide" and people denying that there was a "cultural genocide", and debating what, if anything, "cultural genocide" is. Yes, we have people denying it. We also have people denying that they are racist. Denial isn't a very strong argument.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
They're a subculture, if you like. I have no problem with eliminating subcultures like the Mafia or the Manson family. If you put up a monument to Charles Manson, I wouldn't support destroying it but I'd support moving it.
ringo writes:
Why not? YECs are not a culture.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Here's a recent Washington Post article: Jefferson Davis disappears as New Orleans removes another tribute to the Confederacy
We seem to be trying to wipe out remembrances that the Confederacy was once venerated. It's feels more like a revising or whitewashing of history rather than a way of showing that the monuments don't reflect modern attitudes. A hundred years ago Jefferson Davis and his cause were venerated in New Orleans and they erected a statue, but letting that statue remain standing doesn't mean the cause is still venerated today, and it's a record of history. It, and the other monuments that have disappeared and will disappear, should have been left standing. --Percy
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Perhaps the middle ground might be to allow monuments to the Confederacy to stay, provided there is erected next to them, equally prominently, a monument to the lynched/enslaved/murdered slaves/people of colour who suffered as a result of the Confederacy. In other words "ok, remember it, but remember it all."
(I am at work at the moment, and haven't time to read the full thread, so apologies if this has been raised and covered before).Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
vimesey writes: (I am at work at the moment, and haven't time to read the full thread, so apologies if this has been raised and covered before). The thread is kind of long and had gotten into a digression when last active, so I don't think there's any need to read the whole thing.
Perhaps the middle ground might be to allow monuments to the Confederacy to stay, provided there is erected next to them, equally prominently, a monument to the lynched/enslaved/murdered slaves/people of colour who suffered as a result of the Confederacy. In other words "ok, remember it, but remember it all." Yes, that has been mentioned before. I think preserving ancient monuments while putting them in context would be fine, but you're thinking of these as monuments of remembrance and veneration to the South, which of course they are, but I'm also considering the context of when the monuments were actually erected. The Jefferson statue was erected only a hundred years ago, more than a half century after the Civil War. It stands as a record of the fact that the Southern cause was still venerated then. Any plaque erected next to the statue should include this. Removing the statue just makes it more difficult to preserve this part of our history. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Americans are basically ignorant, uneducated and incapable of critical thought.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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. . . but letting that statue remain standing doesn't mean the cause is still venerated today . . . And yet racism and the Confederacy are still venerated today by white supremacist groups in the South and elsewhere.
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