Creation

Hi creation,Sorry I missed this post but for some reason I do not get email notification when someone posts to my thread or when they reply to a post I have made to them.

quote:

---

Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

---

This sentence has a Qal perfect verb, a subject, and object which make it a declarative statement.The sentence starts with a noun that tells us when the action of the verb is preformed.
God is the subject of the verb which is perfect meaning a completed action.
The object of the verb heavens and earth is the results of the action of the subject of the verb.Thus according to the Hebrew text you have the heavens and the earth existing and ready to be inhabited nothing else is required.Genesis 1:2-2:3 has nothing to do with the beginning. The univedrse exists prior to Genesis 1:2.The only part of the Bible that tells us anything bout the day the heavens and the earth began to exist begins with Genesis 2:4 and the following history of that day through Genesis 4:24.God Bless,

Hi Phat,This thread will do to discuss what you and your pastor talked about so I will copy and paste it over here after I answer this post. The reason I did not answer when you posted is that I do not receive emails when someone posts to my topics or reply's to a post of mine. I don't see any problem with using evidence to prove scripture. I believe the Bible and True Science will agree. The science that says we think or I think in one sentence and two sentences becomes a fact and the Bible will not agree. Because that science is not based on facts. I believe the Bible is a literal account of what took place. It does not go into the detail that I would like for it to but that is ok.As far as the beginning is concerned we will never understand that until we can ask one who observed the event. Until then we can only assume and guess.Science does the same as just a few years ago the universe was said to be 8 billion years old. Today it is 13+billion years old with some going out to 20 billion years old. When someone starts figuring out how all the material got 5 miles deep in the earth to form the oil, natural gas and coal. We have used over 1 trillion barrels of oil and there remains over 3 trillion barrels in the earth. This oil is under 22k+ psi so it did not get from the surface to where it is today with the earth being the same size it is today. Where that oil is today was the surface of the land mass whether it was covered with water or protruded out of the water. That oil did not form overnight. It takes 98k tons of material to produce 1 gallon of gas. When multiplied out to the total amount of material needed just for the oil not counting natural gas and coal the number gets quite large. The earth is only so big and can produce only so much material per cropSince the layers of overburden that covered the material had to be produced after the material had grown to cover it with the process to get all the material would have taken a very long time after the earth was created. Is 4 billion years sufficient time I doubt that it is but maybe time will tell if anyone ever decides to study the earths production of oil. All they care about is getting it out of the earth, not how it got there. We call oil fossil fuel as decayed matter is what the oil is made from. Enough on my little rant about oil. If you are saying the Bible and Science will agree on the facts of how the universe began to exist I would agree.As far as God intervening in our lives. He intervenes in the lives of those who have been born again and are members of His family. Those who have not been born again The Holy Spirit will deal with them trying to convince them of their condition and make the gospel available for them to hear. He will not coerce them nor give them a sign. He created mankind with the ability to know good and evil and to choose to believe in and serve Him. The Universe obeys His laws, the animals obeys His laws, and Angels obey His laws. Mankind is the only created existence that has a choice.I can say that over the last 69 years of my life since I was saved in 1949 there are too many events I can look back on and see God's directions for me to not believe in and trust Him.I will give 1 example here. Sometime in the spring of 1954 I was sitting in the rec-room drinking a coke and eating a pack of Tom's cheese crackers during recess and this beautiful young lady walked up and asked if the seat next to me was taken. I said no so she sat down. I asked her if she would like a coke, she said yes, so I went and got her one and a pack of crackers. She then told me she was trying to make her boyfriend jealous as she had cut her hair and he got mad because he belonged to a church that women were not allowed to cut their hair and he had told her not to cut hers.
About that time the bell rang ending recess and I had to go to class. Her boyfriend was setting on the porch of the ag building watching us all the time. Since he was my classmate and I had to go by him to get in the class room. He said, "I saw you sitting with my girl". I said to him Louis you can forget her I am going to marry her.The day after graduation I married that young lady June 3, 1957.
All I know is that something told me this was the wife I needed. I did not know why but I do now. Ask your pastor what kind of a woman a pastor needs and he can probably explain it better in person than I can here. It takes a very special woman to fill the job of being a pastor's wife. My wife is the only woman in the world that could have been my helpmeet in what God had planned for my life. So he arranged our meeting and convinced me on sight that she was the one for me. We have been married now for 60 years and this June 3rd we will reach 61 years of serving the Lord together.That is just 1 of thousands of events in my life that I see the hand of God leading me. So when someone tells me God does not exist I feel pity for them because they have missed so much in life.Anyway I will copy your post about the discussion with your pastor and comment on it in this thread.God Bless,

Why can't we use facts found in the present to reconstruct the past through the use of the scientific method? We do that all of the time when crimes have been committed, even when there are no living witnesses. What are these ages based on, and why do you reject their conclusions? You do know that the crust of the Earth is moving, right? Do you deny that the crust sinks into the mantle as it cools and increases in density? Do you deny that the weight of sedimentation also adds to the rate of subsidence?You do know that sedimentation is an ongoing process, right? What evidence do you have that God had anything to do with this?

Nope. Yup. Nope.

Hi Taq, You can, and when you do you are basing your conclusions on some assumptions. What they think the information that they had told them.I just think it is a lot older than 20k years because the Bible tells me it was created in the beginning and I don't know when the beginning was, and neither does anyone else. Yes very slowly as it has not completely stopped yet from its division from the single land mass that existed in Genesis 1:9.I don't think the land material that dives into the mantel could survive the temperature to produce oil that you could get with a drill.Sedimentation that comes from space above our atmosphere to the earth adds to sedimentation. Anything that comes from planet earth is just transferring material from one location to the other.It is said we gain about 15 tonnes per year and lose 95,000 tonnes per year. That is a loss. Simple I was there and I have a few thousand other things that God has directed and blessed me with. How do I know God is responsible for all these things in my life. We walk and talk together all the time.
Yea I know you think I am crazy and that is ok. But if you ever experience God like I have you will understand what I am saying. If you don't ever experience Him as I have you will continue to believe it is foolishness.God Bless,

This was one of the funniest and creepiest things I've ever heard from a creationist. Were you checking it out when I was concieved?

This one is really, really funny. Paternity tests, ICANT? I would love you to pay everything for my children. Are you really that unable to even try to think for yourself, ICANT?

From the rest of the bible we know a few things that quantify this. One example is that this universe or heavens, stars, etc,, will pass away suddenly. Fold up like a scroll.So whatever the stars are, they will all cease to exist one day. We also know that stars were put there to be for signs and time for man on earth. From earth, we will also see them all disappear. So one cannot suggest that the stars were already here before the world in any meaningful way.

Hi Pressie, What is your reading comprehension? Seems very low to me.No I was not checking it out when you were conceived.I was giving Phat an example of how I knew God was real in my life and Taq asked a question concerning that example I gave.Here is what Taq was questioning. Message 392

quote:

---

I can say that over the last 69 years of my life since I was saved in 1949 there are too many events I can look back on and see God's directions for me to not believe in and trust Him.

​

I will give 1 example here. Sometime in the spring of 1954 I was sitting in the rec-room drinking a coke and eating a pack of Tom's cheese crackers during recess and this beautiful young lady walked up and asked if the seat next to me was taken. I said no so she sat down. I asked her if she would like a coke, she said yes, so I went and got her one and a pack of crackers. She then told me she was trying to make her boyfriend jealous as she had cut her hair and he got mad because he belonged to a church that women were not allowed to cut their hair and he had told her not to cut hers.
About that time the bell rang ending recess and I had to go to class. Her boyfriend was setting on the porch of the ag building watching us all the time. Since he was my classmate and I had to go by him to get in the class room. He said, "I saw you sitting with my girl". I said to him Louis you can forget her I am going to marry her.

​

The day after graduation I married that young lady June 3, 1957.
All I know is that something told me this was the wife I needed. I did not know why but I do now. Ask your pastor what kind of a woman a pastor needs and he can probably explain it better in person than I can here. It takes a very special woman to fill the job of being a pastor's wife. My wife is the only woman in the world that could have been my helpmeet in what God had planned for my life. So he arranged our meeting and convinced me on sight that she was the one for me. We have been married now for 60 years and this June 3rd we will reach 61 years of serving the Lord together.

​

That is just 1 of thousands of events in my life that I see the hand of God leading me. So when someone tells me God does not exist I feel pity for them because they have missed so much in life.

---

Taq asked the following question concerning the quote above. Message 393

quote:

---

What evidence do you have that God had anything to do with this?

---

I certainly was there when those events I talked about took place.Next time read what you are commenting about before typing your quips.God Bless,

Hi Pressie, Would you please explain how what you said is remotely about anything I said?God Bless,

Hi Creation, Since you say the Bible says the heavens and the earth will fold up like a scroll, could you please supply book, chapter, and verse where I can find that?I can't find where the Bible says it will pass away suddenly, nor fold up like a scroll,.I can find where it will melt with fervent heat:

quote:

---

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

​

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

---

God is then going to create a new heaven and a new earth.

quote:

---

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

---

I believe Science tells us the earth will be consumed by our sun which would cause it to melt with fervent heat.Some scientist believe the universe has melted many times in the past and had a new beginning to exist out of the melted blob of energy. They would use different words to express what I said, which is OK. Yes they will melt as they are part of the heavens.
Where are you going to be standing when they melt?
The stars and everything in the heavens was created on day one which is found in Genesis 1:1-5.God Bless,

What are those assumptions and why are they invalid? What is that information, and why are their conclusions wrong?You seem to think that scientists just sit around and yell out random numbers as guesses. This isn't the case. I don't see why it would need to dive into the mantle since the source rocks for known oil reserves are not diving into the mantle. Why isn't transferring sediments from mountains to basins a valid mechanism? Why don't you videotape God walking and talking?

Really?Revelation 6:14 It's just the heavens - not the earth.The word to roll up (like a scroll) is εἱλίσσω
Which is actually related to the English word 'evolve'Darwin apparently had some concerns with the world 'evolve' because of its religious connotations of a 'predetermined' history 'unfolding' over time - like a scroll.Just thought the irony was quite amusing.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Hi Phat,In Message 341 Phat said:

quote:

---

I CANT, I thought I would share with you an exchange that I had with my own Pastor, recently.
He likely thinks much the same way that you do, and I know that his reply will be ridiculed here at EvC, but nobody here is as well known by me as he is, and I value his input.

​

This is our conversation:

ME --my faith has been tested lately...I believe, but I dont believe in what people tell me I need to believe in.
I believe that Jesus is Lord, that He is alive today and that He is Gods Son, Creator of all seen and unseen, but I do not believe in a word for word literal Bible...that stuff you guys teach about a literal Genesis and all that...makes no sense logically. I refuse to simply shut my eyes tight and declare that I believe THAT!

​

PASTOR--That’s your pitfall. The foundation of our faith is in Genesis. If you don’t believe that your foundation is built on sand and your faith will never be stable.

​

ME--I just have to be honest...I cant believe in something that is not logical.
Ken Ham is not a strong Christian, by the way. The reason I come to bug you is that I believe that you are, but my issue is with God and not humans.(although some humans are willfully ignorant)

​

PASTOR--You want a creator who does things according to your logic. You fail to realize He is beyond what our brains can fathom.

​

ME--my intelligence is likely my downfall...I wish I could just have the trusting faith of a child, but I must be honest with myself
and yes you have a point...

​

PASTOR--Your intelligence? Think about that statement. Your intelligence. It’s minuscule in comparison to an infinite God.

​

ME--I know. that I DO believe!

​

PASTOR--You.... you are your own issue. You have to learn the all-important lesson of dying to self.

​

I CANT writes:

​

Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.

The reason that I frame my statements that way is to present my belief the way that many people at EvC would understand. jar taught me the idea that God cannot be proven, thus to frame the issue as a belief against reality is more honest than to declare that what I believe is reality.

---

Phat I will address you conversation with your Pastor after which you can see where we might agree. I agree with your Pastor completely.I tell people all the time if you can believe Genesis 1:1 you will not have any problem with any part of the rest of the Bible.My question to you is why do you not believe in a literal reading of the Bible?Yes I know that there are copyist and redactors that have copied the Bible over the years. I also realize there are those who translated the Bible we have today from the older manuscripts. I don't know which version you use but I use the KJV as it is the best English version we have. Does it have problems? I find the first mistake in verse 2 of the Bible. The LXX translators some 2300 years ago translated the vav ו conjunction that starts the 2nd verse as a disjunctive conjunction. The Masoretic text marks the vav ו of the second verse as a disjunctive conjunction. The KJV translators translated it as a conjunctive conjunction, 'and'. The LXX translated it as 'now'. A disjunctive conjunction could be translated now, or but which would be a better translation.The Cardinal number (one) אפם is used in Genesis 1:5 but is translated as (first) דאשון.I have spent almost 50 years of my life studying Biblical Hebrew so I don't have to accept what I am told the old manuscripts says. I can study it for myself and reach my own conclusions to compare with those available.But you are so confused by what science says about creation and what YEC"S say about creation. If that was the only choice available I would probably choose science because most of what the YEC"S say does not even agree with what the Bible says. As I said what YEC"S spout is not logical or Scriptural.As far as Ken Ham goes I do not even know if he is saved but I do know he is not Christ like which is what a Christian is. Ark encounter is an endeavor to make money not to show people what Noah's Ark looked like. Had he use the description in the Bible the ark would have been built as a rectangle with a flat bottom not like a modern day boat. The ark was to float a lot of cargo not to traverse through the sea. His ark would have had less than half the volume of the ark I drew over 20 years ago, according to the text.The things the YEC"S put forth that happened during the flood is based on the visions Ellen G. White claimed to have been given after she was in a coma for 2 weeks from being hit in the head while on the way home from school. These visions came to here a few years later. I have presented this before giving where that information can be found. But google is just as good and probably faster that looking up my posts. He is spot on Phat. I agree Phat your intelligence is not the problem but what little you and I have is minuscule compared to God.I would say the problem is not the intelligence but the knowledge. Intelligence is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired.You know the old saying about a computer, "garbage in, garbage out". The same applies to your processing center. You put garbage into your thinking process and you will get garbage out.You have been reading a lot of garbage since I met you. I agree that you are your biggest problem.Your statement that you do believe, could you explain exactly what you believe? You can answer this is a private message if you choose to do so.I am going to try to address your questions concerning what the Bible says or does not say over the next few weeks. I am not going to be baited into wandering off from addressing what the Bible says. I will make statements where science and the Bible agree.Now any Scripture I give you I want you to understand what it says. So it will be necessary for you to know the answer to some questions you need to ask about each one.
1. Who is doing the speaking/writing?
2. What is he/she speaking/writing about?
3. Where is he/she speaking/writing?
4. Why is he/she speaking/writing?
5. When is he/she speaking/writing?The first Scripture to discuss.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Phat analyze that verse.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : correct link

Hi Mod, Where did you get your information from?The word βιβλίον is the word used in Revelation 1:11.It appears in the Greek text 32 times in 28 verses.
It is translated book 29 times, bill 1 time, scroll 1 time and writing 1 time.The meaning of βιβλίον is 1.a small book, a scroll, a written document.The word εἱλίσσω that you used would be translated sweat in English.God Bless,