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Author Topic:   Why we should not expect many if any Creationists
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(3)
Message 31 of 107 (782095)
04-15-2016 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
04-12-2016 9:04 AM


Why
jar writes:
The issue is settled.
I completely agree with you,at least in regard to this venue.
Creationism as an intellectual exercise is a dead issue as none can survive here unless they are Faith, who has a unique ability to ignore all evidence while maintaining her position, what to anyone else would be considered a futile effort, in the face of so much learned opposition. Besides, not only does everyone else do a better job than I could in debating her, thereby relieving me of such a burden, I similarly avoid replying to her posts because it serves no purpose and goes south real quick. The mods have better things to do than dealing with our passions in defense of immutable positions.
To me, the debate on creationism is no longer about scientific fact (we won long ago, their only defense is not logic but outright denial) or in court but rather in politics, as the Texas School Board and Republican office holders show. When there is little to nothing else left for me to contribute about science or Christianity, naturally I turn to where I might make a contribution, such as history or economics.
That being said, I am glad I discovered this forum as between it and Talk.Origins, I can now easily shut any creationist down quite abruptly, a useful skill in West Texas. Speaking of West Texas, I hope this forum survives for many more years as I am not able to visit my friends at New Mexico Tech or Los Alamos as often as I would like in order to be among those who provide an equivalent intellectual conversation.
I tend to agree with Hieroglyphics on one thing, somewhat ironically EvC Forum has evolved into something far beyond the evolution vs. creationism debate. Because:
The issue is settled.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 04-12-2016 9:04 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 04-16-2016 8:07 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 32 of 107 (782100)
04-16-2016 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by anglagard
04-15-2016 10:30 PM


Re: Why
Concerning Faith, I don't know what's going on with her lately. She engages in very little actual discussion, quickly descending into bald declaration and ad hominem, then abandoning threads in mid-stream.
Concerning the state of the debate and whether we've won, I think there's a ways to go before we can declare victory. Overt efforts at teaching creationism in public schools have ended for the most part, but creationism is quietly taught in classrooms all across the Bible Belt. And I'd like to see the textbook fascists in states like Texas defeated.
The public face of creationism has changed, for the most part going underground. The number of articulate creationists who could lie in public with a straight face are either dead or are much less active than they used to be: Henry Morris, Duane Gish, Steve Austin, Kent Hovind, Michael Bebe, William Dembski, Stephen C. Meyer, etc. Without a strong public technical voice there seem to be many fewer creationists who can carry a discussion beyond an initial declaration of "facts".
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by anglagard, posted 04-15-2016 10:30 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 04-16-2016 9:26 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 107 (782103)
04-16-2016 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
04-16-2016 8:07 AM


Re: Why
Percy writes:
The public face of creationism has changed, for the most part going underground. The number of articulate creationists who could lie in public with a straight face are either dead or are much less active than they used to be: Henry Morris, Duane Gish, Steve Austin, Kent Hovind, Michael Bebe, William Dembski, Stephen C. Meyer, etc.
That is just yet another example of the avoidance system. If you look at the curriculum of the avoidance schools, listen to the avoidance TV and radio networks, attend the presentations at the avoidance churches, read the avoidance textbooks they are still there and even more active. (well except for those like Henry that have gone on to GLORY)
The pattern is similar with one glaring exception; they declared victory and simply ban or censor any attempts at discussion instead of allowing and even encouraging alternative views. Where EvC might bemoan the lack of Creationist participation they actively avoid any Evilution threats.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 107 (782105)
04-16-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
04-15-2016 11:48 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
Social media don't make people shallow - but they enable people to exercise their shallowness instantaneously.
Lol. Yeah, that is true. But I don't think there is anything shallow about not being interested in Creo vs. Evo discussions, and in particular online versions of such discussion. People sometimes do pay attention to public debates on the subject, but even when famous people are involved there really is not much of an audience.
This place was probably jumping just after the Dover v Kitzmiller trial, but that was ten years ago. If something like that were to get in the news again, we might see a new flood of debating enthusiasts.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-15-2016 11:48 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 04-21-2016 2:25 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 35 of 107 (782223)
04-21-2016 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
04-16-2016 11:14 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
This place was probably jumping just after the Dover v Kitzmiller trial, but that was ten years ago. If something like that were to get in the news again, we might see a new flood of debating enthusiasts.
What makes you think there would be a flood of debating?
I have been around here for 9 years and have seen very little debating.
Debating is when a subject is discussed with one side affirming and the other side denying.
Most discussions here when a creationist comes along ends up with everybody pilling on and telling him/her how stupid they are. In a very condescending way.
So why would anyone want to discuss anything here?
You guys are just like all the YEC'S I have met here, they know what they believe and don't want to be bothered with the facts.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-16-2016 11:14 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 04-21-2016 2:59 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 37 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-21-2016 4:07 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 04-21-2016 7:27 AM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 107 (782224)
04-21-2016 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
04-21-2016 2:25 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
What makes you think there would be a flood of debating?
I have not been here nearly as long as you have. But I spent considerable time reading through the archives before I made my first post, and I still peruse the archives on occasion. There is plenty to suggest that there has been a severe drop off in the number of creationist visiting and participating in discussion, sometimes heated than there are now.
During my own time here, I do recall seeing and participating in more debates and with a larger number of creationist participants at the beginning of my time here than I do now.
have been around here for 9 years and have seen very little debating.
Interesting. I am not going to challenge you regarding what you have seen, but my own investigations suggest something different about the history of activity and debating on this board. Perhaps our definitions of debate are dissimilar.
Debating is when a subject is discussed with one side affirming and the other side denying.
Yeah, I have seen plenty of that here. Apparently you missed it. Please forgive me if I don't participate in an insult swap with you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 04-21-2016 2:25 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 1:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(7)
Message 37 of 107 (782225)
04-21-2016 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
04-21-2016 2:25 AM


The "grumpy old men" syndrome?
Most discussions here when a creationist comes along ends up with everybody pilling on and telling him/her how stupid they are. In a very condescending way.
My impression is that there is some truth to that statement, especially more recently.
So many of the evolution side have been around here so long and have seen the same arguments brought up many times. When the forum was younger, the attitudes were younger, and the debates/discussions were friendlier.
Now many of the evolution side have become grumpy old men - "GET OFF MY SCIENCE!"
Or something like that.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Change "debate/discussion were" to "debates/discussions were" (or I could have reverted to my original "debate/discussion was").

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 38 of 107 (782229)
04-21-2016 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
04-21-2016 2:25 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
ICANT writes:
Most discussions here when a creationist comes along ends up with everybody pilling on and telling him/her how stupid they are. In a very condescending way.
...
You guys are just like all the YEC'S I have met here, they know what they believe and don't want to be bothered with the facts.
If YEC's are as you say, that "they know what they believe and don't want to be bothered with the facts," then how can you criticize evolutionists for piling on with condescension?
How can you be sure you're not just like the YEC's you criticize?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 04-21-2016 2:25 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 1:00 AM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 39 of 107 (782292)
04-22-2016 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
04-21-2016 7:27 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
How can you be sure you're not just like the YEC's you criticize?
I may be just as set in my ways and beliefs as they are and you and others here for that matter.
So maybe we could have a serious discussion and you and the gentlemen here could straighten out my thinking on what the Bible actually says in comparison to what your science says.
Percy for some reason I am not getting email notifications of reply's.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 04-21-2016 7:27 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2016 1:22 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 6:41 AM ICANT has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 40 of 107 (782293)
04-22-2016 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
04-22-2016 1:00 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
So maybe we could have a serious discussion and you and the gentlemen here could straighten out my thinking on what the Bible actually says in comparison to what your science says.
Uh, none of your beliefs have anything to do with what the Bible actually says.
Rather, it has to do with what you believe that the Bible says.
Science says what the physical universe is. God created the physical universe. If you happen to believe that the physical universe is completely different from what your God had created, then shouldn't you be getting in your God's Face about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 1:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 1:57 AM dwise1 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 41 of 107 (782294)
04-22-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
04-21-2016 2:59 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Yeah, I have seen plenty of that here. Apparently you missed it. Please forgive me if I don't participate in an insult swap with you.
Well your concept of debating is different than mine. All I have seen is one party telling the other party what they believed and the why their opponents were wrong and the other party telling them how wrong they were and what they believed. Where I come from that is having arguments.
I was on my high school debate team that won the State championship two years running. The debates we had were nothing like what I have seen here.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 04-21-2016 2:59 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 04-22-2016 9:44 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2016 9:27 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 107 (782295)
04-22-2016 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
04-22-2016 1:22 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
Hi dwise1
dwise1 writes:
Uh, none of your beliefs have anything to do with what the Bible actually says.
Rather, it has to do with what you believe that the Bible says.
Now this is what I call a serious discussion.
You do not know what I believe the Bible says and I am not sure you know what the Bible says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2016 1:22 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2016 2:17 AM ICANT has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 43 of 107 (782296)
04-22-2016 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICANT
04-22-2016 1:57 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
I am an atheist. I do not care one whit what the Bible says nor what you "true Christians" want to imagine that it says. None of that means anything at all.
Like all "true Christians", you do not care one whit what the Bible actually says, but rather what you want to claim that it says.
In Message 39, you said:
So maybe we could have a serious discussion and you and the gentlemen here could straighten out my thinking on what the Bible actually says in comparison to what your science says.
Who cares what the Bible says? Who created the universe? According to your own theology, Who created the universe? Your god, right? Do you disagree that your god created the universe? If you do disagree that your own god created the universe, then do please present that argument.
Science discovers how the universe works. Your own god created the universe. So how could science, as it describes how the universe works, be wrong?
If what you say about what the Bible says about the universe directly contradicts the way that the universe actually is, then just exactly who is wrong? The universe itself, which your own God had created? Or your own puny fallible human inability to understand the simplest things about nature?
Do please answer that question very specifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 1:57 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 44 of 107 (782303)
04-22-2016 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
04-22-2016 1:00 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
ICANT writes:
I may be just as set in my ways and beliefs as they are and you and others here for that matter.
Most of us here are pretty set on following the evidence where it leads.
So maybe we could have a serious discussion and you and the gentlemen here could straighten out my thinking on what the Bible actually says in comparison to what your science says.
I don't think mythological stories should be mixed with science.
Percy for some reason I am not getting email notifications of reply's.
AT&T has EvC Forum on their "spammer" list and will not allow mail from EvC Forum to get through to you. I filed the necessary form to get off their list months ago, but they have neither fixed it nor replied. You could try filing a complaint with AT&T yourself.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 7:03 AM Percy has replied
 Message 69 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-28-2016 7:34 PM Percy has replied
 Message 70 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-28-2016 7:44 PM Percy has replied
 Message 71 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-28-2016 7:59 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 72 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-28-2016 8:27 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 107 (782305)
04-22-2016 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
04-22-2016 6:41 AM


Re: It's not the Internet that's Changed
I don't think mythological stories should be mixed with science.
You may refuse to mix the Bible and science if you like, it's your website, but isn't there something in the rules about respecting the sincerely held beliefs of others? Most of us here who call ourselves Christians sincerely regard the Bible as historical truth, not as mythological -- though some of us may regard all of it as the truth and others only some as truth. Nevertheless it is not regarded as entirely mythological except by unbelievers, and to affirm the belief of the unbelievers over the believers is disrespecting the views of the believers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 6:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 7:38 AM Faith has replied
 Message 50 by jar, posted 04-22-2016 8:50 AM Faith has replied

  
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