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Author | Topic: Faith vs Science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9572 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.2
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Phat writes: Quite simply I am attempting to show that when men imagined something, it was usually their own vain imagination. You don't have to attempt to show it, when men imagine something, it's men that do the imagining. Vain or otherwise.
There were times, however, where their imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans. This is just preaching - there were no such times. Need I remind you again that this is a science thread? If you have something to substantiate this stuff other than men's imaginings let's see it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
This is just preaching - there were no such times. You have no evidence of this either. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9572 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.2
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Phat writes: You have no evidence of this either. You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member (Idle past 198 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Tangle writes: Yes. Exactly. In economic geology we can demonstrate that the earth more-or- less worked the same way billions of years ago. Old earth methods and models work. We can more-or-less predict what's going to be found underground. No Spooks involved. You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it. Unlike the non-scientific methods. They can't accurately predict anything. Anything can happen with their "models". They can't predict what's going to be found undergound at all. Just: anything can be found or not found. That's about it. No use at all. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 635 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's only your vain imagination.
Quite simply I am attempting to show that when men imagined something, it was usually their own vain imagination. There were times, however, where their imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans.
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
You may be right. I hope not, however.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
There were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.
- there were no such times......You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it. All I can say is that perhaps in our lifetime we may see evidence that convinces us one way or the other. You may become more convinced that there were and are such times, or i may finally be persuaded that you were right all along. Time will tell. In the meantime, enjoy life and try your best.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9572 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.2
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Phat writes: There were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general. Nope, never happened - just stuff people made up for you to repeat. Just pure nonsense.
All I can say is that perhaps in our lifetime we may see evidence that convinces us one way or the other. You may become more convinced that there were and are such times, or i may finally be persuaded that you were right all along. Time will tell. In the meantime, enjoy life and try your best. Don't be silly, how could there be anything that could convince me of it? What is it that you can even imagine that would do it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 635 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Vain hope in vain imagination.
You may be right. I hope not, however.
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edge Member (Idle past 1929 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
[qs]here were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.
That's what they say here in Colorado, too. But it isn't a god.
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Phat writes:
here were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.edge writes: Yoyu mean our imagination isnt a god? Scientifically you are absolutely correct. I may perceive and believe that God speaks through humans..but no way can I prove it. I do have a scrip that gives me internal verification,however.
That's what they say here in Colorado, too. But it isn't a god.2 Peter 1:20-21 writes: I realize that this is meaningless to a critical thinker who denies belief in favor of evidence...so in conclusion, I will say that scientifically I cannot write a thesis on how to know God...at least one that differed from what scripture says....I would quote scripture only because i believe that one can not improve the original wording. Apart from all that, in order for believers to demonstrate how they know God, one would have to follow them around with a camera and a mic...without them knowing...to witness the behavior of the individual.
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. I would say that you would be witnessing and documenting God through the behavior of a human. You may argue that my evidence was insufficient to differentiate a believer from a non believer. So here we are. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Taq Member Posts: 10274 Joined: Member Rating: 7.4 |
Phat writes: Apart from all that, in order for believers to demonstrate how they know God, one would have to follow them around with a camera and a mic...without them knowing...to witness the behavior of the individual. How would behavior indicate that they know anything about any deity?
I would say that you would be witnessing and documenting God through the behavior of a human. You could say that the Sun orbits the Earth. You could say that the Moon is made of marshmallows. Saying something does not make it true. This seems to be a thread that runs throughout theism. Theists believe that writing something down or saying something makes it true by the very act of writing it or saying it. You take that same position, treating scriptures as dogmatically true simply because somebody wrote them down.
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
The original topic here was:
quote: The main reason I brought this topic back was to address Faiths rant over at Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. For the YEC, I ask if there should be a different definition as to what science is apart from critical thinking and the scientific method. If as claimed the Bible is used as a source, should it simply be allowed to be accepted as a valid source or does it require some sort of standard (apart from Jesus Christ Himself)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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Faith writes: The critics will claim that in order for any claim to be scientific it has to be verified through the scientific method. Faith in the right things, true things, real things although unseen things, faith in the true God and His revelation in the Bible, can certainly lead to knowledge of things in the real world. Nobody is claiming faith "is supported by evidence or science," what we are claiming is that faith LEADS to knowledge that can be scientific. Believers are passionate about their source, though it is technically unverifiable without belief. I know. I am one of them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18584 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Taq writes: You are basically correct. Belief is very strong in that one. Theists believe that writing something down or saying something makes it true by the very act of writing it or saying it. You take that same position, treating scriptures as dogmatically true simply because somebody wrote them down. Our argument is that belief needs to be respected rather than simply dismissed without evidence. Your argument is that science by definition rejects and dismisses a myriad of things on a regular basis.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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