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Author Topic:   Sharia Law - Does it have a place in Democratic Countries?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 31 of 34 (774846)
12-23-2015 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
12-23-2015 3:34 PM


PaulK writes:
I'm stating that Sharia law has a valid place in a democratic country as an option for resolving civil disputes
OK. I think most people agree that. Even harsh critics of it believe that it can serve a useful function and I'm tending towards that position.
- if both parties agree.
and are fully able to understand and agree without family, cultural or religious pressures
I'm further pointing out that British law grants it that place - and no more.
It is not at all clear what UK law grants. The councils opperate outside UK law - they a private hearings and have no validity in civil law. Yet many courts tell their applicants that their judgement is final and binding. They are not. They often attempt to rule in criminal cases which they may not.
Some MATs operate within the laws of arbitration but even then the Family court can overrule any decision made there and any decisions made that break UK civil law in other ways can not stand. But virtually no arbitration decisions are taken to civil law. The evidence is that family and community pressure prevents this.
There is concern that some of these courts go beyond their powers and that many women who are forced to use them are pressured into accepting decisions which are discriminatory and against their interests.
My position at the moment is that the whole system needs oversight and reform - it's not transparent and records are not kept. It's simply not compatible with any form of progressive liberal democratic process that values equality and puts the wellbeing of the child in family law at the top of the pile for justice.
But if it could be made transparent with regulation and reformed to come into line with existing legal processes it could serve a useful function.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2015 3:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2015 4:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 34 (774847)
12-23-2015 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
12-23-2015 4:10 PM


quote:
It is not at all clear what UK law grants. The councils opperate outside UK law - they a private hearings and have no validity in civil law. Yet many courts tell their applicants that their judgement is final and binding. They are not. They often attempt to rule in criminal cases which they may not.
It would be a lot clearer to you if you read your own sources. Sharia courts can act as arbitrators and mediators. Some are officially accredited arbitrators, and their judgements can be binding. Everything else you mention is outside the law and potentially illegal - even criminal if they attempt to enforce any form of corporal punishment.
As I said, the primary problems are social and must be dealt with by social services - including charities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2015 4:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2015 4:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 33 of 34 (774851)
12-23-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
12-23-2015 4:20 PM


PaulK writes:
would be a lot clearer to you if you read your own sources. Sharia courts can act as arbitrators and mediators. Some are officially accredited arbitrators, and their judgements can be binding. Everything else you mention is outside the law and potentially illegal - even criminal if they attempt to enforce any form of corporal punishment.
Which is exactly what I said. The facts of how these things are supposed to work is not in doubt, what IS in doubt is how they actually DO work. As is described in the papers. Read the last one.
As I said, the primary problems are social and must be dealt with by social services - including charities.
This can't be dealt with only by social services and charities, that has failed, it needs proper judicial oversight.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2015 4:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2015 5:08 PM Tangle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 34 (774853)
12-23-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
12-23-2015 4:42 PM


I don't think that there is any doubt about the realities.
But oversight can only go so far. The courts don't get involved in civil cases unless someone complains. Yes, there can be monitoring of any registered Sharia court, but tYour can bet that the worst problems occur elsewhere. Informing people of their legal rights, offering support, protection and refuge is going to be essential.
But it is hardly a problem restricted to Islam or the UK. You ought to read about what Warren Jeffs got away with as the leader of a breakaway Mormon sect. Fortunately he went too far and he's in jail for child sexual assault.
Warren Jeffs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2015 4:42 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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